David Freeman Carolina Classic Dragons

Let the record show that I just PM'd Anthony, requesting that this "NC cheerleaders" crap be put to bed. I didn't feel the need to go into all of the details publicly because of the fact that it has NOTHING to do with the crux of the argument here (as I told him in the message). -- just covering my bases. Let it also be known that I said nothing to him in the message that I would have a problem with becoming public.

Originally Posted by Khaldrago

Dragonluver83 - Since you felt the need to take my opinion on this incident and analyze it to death i'll go ahead and respond to help you out a little.

((Judging a book by it's cover??? You will learn one day my friend.
Pictures and hobbies dont tell you anything about a man's business eithic's.
My hobbies and business ethic's are black and white.)) ... hmm alright...

Originally Posted by Khaldrago

I feel you may be limiting your potential success in Business/Marketing 101... Pictures and hobbies perhaps don't tell YOU " YOURSELF " about YOUR business ethics because YOU think your hobbies and business ethics are black and white... but YOU are missing the entire perception piece from potential customers who don't know anything about you... if you understand marketing and business you know that first impressions and perceptions are huge!!! Nothing " yourbeat " shows has me drooling to take him serious as a breeder of high quality dragons.

Well please allow me to retort,

Beings that your new here. I'll fill you in. I Need 0 (zero) information from you on buss 101. My success here (as a actual dragon breeder of high end dragons) has reached a level that many other have failed to achieve. I have sold animals all over the U.S. and have exported to 4 different countries on the regular, over the last three years. Dragon prices ranging from 50 bucks to 1000 bucks for a single 5 inch baby. Im also waiting the new bearded dragon manuel ( U.K. version) To see the pictures I was asked to send in. So please dont think i have "limited" my success. I am quite happy with my accomplishments!

That said...

I know exactly what your saying. Why buy from a guy with guns on his pics and certain phrases that he uses, maybe be cocky. Doesnt give you a homely "hey I wanna buy from this guy" feeling does it?

You can plainly see im rough around the edges, and re-reading this kinda cocky myself. . Sad thing is, you would be the one to come to the reptile shows and see me with tattoo's and piercings and wanna pass me by. But when you look at me and walk past, you are the one that misses the good deal.

NEVER, judge a book by its cover.

Originally Posted by Khaldrago

That said...

If "yourbeat" and David had the exact same dragons for sale on this site for an example based off first glance and impression i'm going to go with David. A nice picture of a Citrus dragon with logo and classy email and name for a business. Versus "yourbeats"..."2 guns" and some saying that sounds cocky with an email of "mdskillz1717". ( That's all my point was my... " friend " ). Cheers! Good luck in the future.

Well there again you still miss the big picture

David @ Carolina Classic Dragons and a private individual seller (Anthony) He's not making a business out of this, Just another hobby. David is trying to make a consistent profit. So there are things he is going to do AND not going to do.

AN If someone like David seen two animals e-mailed an called Anthony for them. Then maybe he seen a good deal? Or felt good enough to work with the guy.

Originally Posted by Focal X

As for the buyer being defensive, I would have been too. Asking why it took two hours to contact the seller about a DOA insinuates the seller killed it.

This is one of the reasons why he (Anthony) came here. Alot of ppl are over looking that. This is what I had a problem with. Would David not have wanted his customer to call him asap in the event of a d.o.a.?

Originally Posted by Focal X

Unless the dragon was intentionally killed, I don't see it dying in 2 hours unless it was the result of shipping, just my opinion.

Or left in the box and UN-intentionally killed? Another thing is why was one dragon dead and the other one alive?

DONT think a dragon is dumb enough to lay on a heat pack when its hot. Doubt it. Which the dragon was on top of all the newspaper not covered up at all. i have had dragons shipped in nothing but a box with newspaper and never seen the dragon ON TOP... I always had to look for the dragon. Especially a larger dragon. Its weight alone would keep it pressed down under anything light. Like newspaper...............

Originally Posted by Focal X

If you can't guarantee your lizard to live at least 24 hours after arrival, then you should make that clear to the buyer before the sale. Often these details are not discussed beforehand because it can scare a buyer away.

You know the funny thing. I guarantee my animals for 6 weeks. BUT what the buyer did in this case. Would have voided his warranty. Me being me, I would have worked something out. But if you read my T.O.S. the warranty would have been void due to a almost 2 hrs with no notice of a d.o.a.

Originally Posted by Focal X

This is a scary situation and sucks for both parties, but honestly, I would have refunded the $400 right after being notified. If this was a someone without a rep, I might ask for more details, but a good rep should stand for something. Honestly, good customers will be reluctant to purchase from someone that won't take their word or trouble them about a refund. I understand the bad customers ruin this, but you should also be selective on who you sell to. In this case I would have trusted the buyer. No offense to the OP, just my opinion on the matter as requested.

Nicely put, I think (which is also in my T.O.S.) i would refunded the animals price minus the shipping cost. Leaving the refund at 367.50..

Originally Posted by KelliH

The animal arrived DOA. Refund the buyer's money! If there was no set amount for each dragon then refund half of the amount sent (minus shipping) like Tom has said. I don't understand how there could even be a question about what to do in this particular situation.

. I know you probably think im a but I do smile when I read most of your post?

Just one little thing, the buyer wasnt totally confused about the refund. It was leary to him about the D.O.A. The two hour contact. Then the fact that the dragon was sitting on Top of the packing and heat pack.

There is evidence here that a less rep. guy would have been questioned about. But because of David's rep It's going to be over looked.

Originally Posted by CarolinaClassicDragons

Oh Tom Clarke...learned even more about you in this thread. As a breeder, I cannot believe you place more value on phenotype over genotype. I certainly do not. You bring up color? You think the one that died had inferior color? Cmon! Once again, so subjective but I will bet you the majority of people would choose the color of the trans that died over this partial trans.

David now to you.

I cant believe you as a breeder, is trying to pull the B.S. that the HYPO TRANS (just because the eyes are not solid black doesnt mean its not a full trans)( i attached a picture of a HYPO TRANS LEATHERBACK check out his eye. not solid black) Does this make his less of a trans. NO the scales on the dragon will determine if its a trans or not.

The dragons were close in color, Its not like the one was yellow and the one is red. You know as well as I do color sells. And those dragons were close in color.

Yea your customers and/or friends would choose the dead one. BUT you know the HYPO TRANS is worth more by genetic's.

Get something straight, High end dragons is what I have been breeding since before I been on this site. I was one of the first ones on this site to sell trans leathers and hypo trans leathers. Your NOT talking to a student!

Im trying to make a happy middle and bury this thread. I do personally think that if your going to get half of dragons price back, your getting a damn good deal. Im the one that put the 367.50 on this board as a "good offer" an your going to give me the I learned about you b.s. Maybe I wont try to do nothing for you at all David. I havent bad mouthed you and said I would and I have refered you before.

Originally Posted by CarolinaClassicDragons

I now know who you were referring to Anthony All those bad things you heard about me.

Hold on hold on hold on, EVERYBODY knows if i didnt like you, or had something to say I'd say it right here. I would say exactly how i feel and take my infraction. I didnt say nothing about you!

Im sorry I didnt roll over for you,and say you should get 400. I stood in the middle and looked at it maturely.

367.50 refund dont do any more buss. This could have been done off the b.o.i.

Some times you have to put the measuring tapes away, and be logical or cut a loss.

Originally Posted by CarolinaClassicDragons

I just went and looked at my cell phone log and I called Tom at 11:44 which means I opened the box earlier than that. I am guessing the package got here sometime after 10:00. So, it wasn't two hours. We all ship dragons that have been in boxes far longer with no ill effects so trying to question 2 hours or less is so trivial. Just for the record, I was shocked he put a heat pack in that box! They were coming to NC and are temps were in the mid 80's! Seriously?

dave it can go both ways. I personally think something is missing in this story, but letting it go.

Originally Posted by CarolinaClassicDragons

Just send the $367.50.

Can we do this, Anthony?

Originally Posted by CarolinaClassicDragons

If you honestly think Anthony started this thread over whether he should pay $300 or $400, you are kidding yourself. This wasn't an inquiry. This was a desperate attempt to take this public and hope that someone might in one way or another agree with him, jump on his bandwagon, and he could weazel his way out of having to pay anything.

David IF YOU didnt have a reputation, You would be under the micro scope. An being looked at alot harder.

There are flaws in the story

-2 hr time period.

-The picture of the dragon on top of the paper. On top of the heat pack. Really dont think a hot dragon would lay on top of paper on top of the heat pack.

- why is one dragon dead and the other alive?

Tom from TND dragons was there and watch this animal soak and get packed. So its not like he wasnt under the supervision of a professional.

Originally Posted by reptilebaby

I don't think the dragons should have been left in the box with a heat pack inside the house upon arrival though. I never do that because it can cause problems. I think it would be a nice gesture though to refund some of the money.

Polite and reasonable. A few what if's and the dragon may not be dead?

Originally Posted by CarolinaClassicDragons

And sitting in my office with an air temp of 75 is different than sitting on a UPS truck how?

Heres the difference,

The dragon in the office can be let out of the box. The dragon in route to its destination can not be let out. The dragon may be alive if you opened the box a hour sooner?

Originally Posted by CarolinaClassicDragons

I cannot even count the number of dragons I have shipped and received and never had a problem. AGAIN, a heat pack shouldnt have been used and if you were going to use one you communicate that to the buyer AND you package everything (dragon and the heat pak) properly.

Well should it not of been used? Or a lesser heat pack should of been used?

It was cold in Philly. What was the temp in a airplane at 30 thousand feet? I dont think they have heated cabs?

Originally Posted by CarolinaClassicDragons

Again, no communication from the seller/shipper, I miss 3 1/2 days of work waiting for these dragons that never show up and now I am responsible for this dragon dying? Cmon.

Lack of comm. for sure, If both of you did things differently maybe the little girl would still be here?

An so i dont have to quote everyone who grew up some where else but now live in N.C. see post 34.

Originally Posted by dragonluver83

An so i dont have to quote everyone who grew up some where else but now live in N.C. see post 34.

ENOUGH. I'm done with this thread. That crap is getting so old. Dave, I truly hope you get the refund you undoubtedly deserve.

Option 3 is what?

As for the dragon escaping from the bag, if you look closely in pictures #2 & #3, you can see where the dragon was clawing at the styrofoam (left side) and even see bits of it on the dragon itself.

Hey " yourbeat" .. the more you go on and resort to name calling people with input on the situation " ladies " just because you can't take what we are saying is priceless. You tried to use this forum to rough up someones reputation over your own neglect of shipping a dragon. Thanks for confirming that first impressions are most of the time dead on . Thank you.

How about you refund the money and move on with it because yourbeat.

Originally Posted by Focal X

As for the dragon escaping from the bag, if you look closely in pictures #2 & #3, you can see where the dragon was clawing at the styrofoam (left side) and even see bits of it on the dragon itself.

Right, but how does it end up on top of the paper not covered up at all??? and on top of the heat pack?

I sold alot of dragons, never seen them claw outta a bag either. And NEVER seen them on top of newspaper.

I dont like it.........

Originally Posted by dragonluver83

DONT think a dragon is dumb enough to lay on a heat pack when its hot. Doubt it.

But they will burn themselves on heat rock though Really I think we are assuming to much here. Too little info and no one will ever know.



Anthony, even if the dragon arrived live and then died three hours later, would that have changed the refund eligibility? One thing is for certain, it was an accident and someone has to eat it. If the seller doesn't eat it, regardless of who is right or wrong, it's going to leave prospective buyers leery unless you can prove it was the buyer and prove it without doubt, otherwise it looks like you are trying to wiggle your way out of a refund REGARDLESS of who's right or wrong. It's part of the gamble, pay to play. That's the bottom line and all you can do is depend on karma if you got cheated.

It really does suck but does losing that dragon before it hatches really differ that much from losing it in shipping? The fault shouldn't change. Until you have a happy customer, you don't really deserve that money IMO (by you I mean whoever).

Originally Posted by dragonluver83

Right, but how does it end up on top of the paper not covered up at all??? and on top of the heat pack?

I sold alot of dragons, never seen them claw outta a bag either. And NEVER seen them on top of newspaper.

I dont like it.........

Honestly, I haven't a clue and those are the questions we should be asking, not the seller. It does look poor when a seller searches for a reason to not be at fault. Sometimes it's better top eat your suspicions because this is kind of embarrassing, at least it would be for me.

Originally Posted by dragonluver83

Right, but how does it end up on top of the paper not covered up at all??? and on top of the heat pack?

I sold alot of dragons, never seen them claw outta a bag either. And NEVER seen them on top of newspaper.

I dont like it.........

So simply because you havent seen it happen doesnt mean it cant?!

So what is option 3. We all see you watching the thread.