Mark Miller of Loco-Lizards Liar and a Thief

Originally Posted by TheKeeper

My name is Mark Miller of The Gecko Basement. I breed leos, o. castlenaui and veiled chams. I do not have anything to do with this thread and just wanted to make that clear. All my herps have legs.lol.

It's no fun having a common name is it.

I know how you feel.

I would say that all of this is he said/she said. It also appears that many of you are making very harsh judgements against one or both of the two involved. Ultimately there were two people involved and they are the only people who know the truth. Rushing to judgement and calling people names when you are unaware of the truth is just plain stupid, you make yourself look like a fool.

I have a lot of people in this business that I consider friends BUT, BUSINESS IS BUSINESS. If you cant tell a friend that something is wrong then maybe you should reconsider who your friends are. If I purchased anything for $6500.00 dollars and it started to show signs of problems within the first week or two, I would be on the phone, friend or not.

I also do not understand why taking the animal back to try and help would in any way void the TOS? The TOS state 2weeks, not four months.

This is a very sad situation. Whether you think Mark is telling the truth or John is telling the truth, I have yet to see one shred of proof from anyone validating either story. Until that happens, I will keep my judgements to myself. I will continue to do business with Mark as I have never had a problem with him, and if I see something that John has that I want, I will do business with him as well.

Just my 2 cents.

Originally Posted by Bueno Bros

I would say that all of this is he said/she said. It also appears that many of you are making very harsh judgements against one or both of the two involved. Ultimately there were two people involved and they are the only people who know the truth. Rushing to judgement and calling people names when you are unaware of the truth is just plain stupid, you make yourself look like a fool.

I have a lot of people in this business that I consider friends BUT, BUSINESS IS BUSINESS. If you cant tell a friend that something is wrong then maybe you should reconsider who your friends are. If I purchased anything for $6500.00 dollars and it started to show signs of problems within the first week or two, I would be on the phone, friend or not.

I also do not understand why taking the animal back to try and help would in any way void the TOS? The TOS state 2weeks, not four months.

This is a very sad situation. Whether you think Mark is telling the truth or John is telling the truth, I have yet to see one shred of proof from anyone validating either story. Until that happens, I will keep my judgements to myself. I will continue to do business with Mark as I have never had a problem with him, and if I see something that John has that I want, I will do business with him as well.

Just my 2 cents.

It's called a BS meter. If anyone knows either of these two individuals, I happen to know them both, then you would know that Mark is not going to be able to do something that John could not. They are both well known in the herp community and I am sure that both of them would have utilized the same procedures. With that in mind, why in the world would John send it back to him if it were not for a credit?

For that matter, I want to know if there are any emails from you Mark prior to July? In my dealings with John I know he prefers voice to emails. Mark is easy to get a hold of either way. I want to see the emails Mark where you said no refunds (include the headers) and I want to see that they were before July.

Something stinks here and the BS meter is going wild, that's for sure.

Griz

PS There was nothing for John to report in the first few weeks. Regurge is not necessarily indicative of a problem nor is going off feed during breeding. When you add up the fact that Mark stated this animal was actively breeding then one could very easily surmise that the "symptoms" were normal. It would appear that as soon as something looked amiss that John contact Mark.

A regurge is VERY indicitive of a problem, and John should have called Mark immediately to let him know. To the best of my knowledge Mark saying the male was activly breeding is hearsay. Non the less why would any animal that regurged whether in the first or second week of ownership be placed into a breeding program.

For $6500.00 there ar NO "symptoms" that are normal.

exactly greg we are smarter then what he give us credit for just read what he said about me he makes it sound like im a window licker but fails to state why my snakes were in a holding pin/cage if any care to check im sure the local animal control unit here in my town surly have a record(s) of there visits to my house and visably seening my reptiles and stating there in pefrect health and properly housed and escape proof since i have my kids in the house they have to be double locked cages and i have heard from people that know me as well as him they have all stated the mark does not like compation theres been a few times were i looked at him for trying to report me to animal control to shut me down or think he wood get my boas for some reason i know were all the seized retiles go here and im at the top of the list they call to see if i can house and care for a seized reptile or relocate it to a good home. mark do you honestly think if thos pix depicted my practices that all these people would still be contacting me? i have even sold my own offspring that i have produced to several law enforcement officers in diffrent agencies and they have all been here in person to pick there reptile out.. they never seen anything like your describing you graipe about these people slandering your good name well look at what your doing to me lol call the kettle black why dont ya jeez this so called slander thing with other breeders about other bredders is what keeps me from setting up at the local reptile shows i take that stuff personel and i have gotten in other vendors faces after a show in the parking lot for what they were telling potential customers about me and my animals . the potential customers were the ones that pointed it/them out to me all because im the cheapest vendor there everyone else gets mad cause they dont sell theres
repeat bizzness is better then a one time buyer so i think and its less overhead too.
this is another two cents of mine..... so now im out four cents
...but i still have plenty of common cents

Originally Posted by Griz

Can someone check the dates on the pictures of the blood that Mark submitted?

Griz

The EXIF info has been removed from the pictures. No way to date them.

here's a post mark made with that picture dated 11/30/2006

http://redtailboas.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28301

Originally Posted by Bueno Bros

A regurge is VERY indicitive of a problem, and John should have called Mark immediately to let him know. To the best of my knowledge Mark saying the male was activly breeding is hearsay. Non the less why would any animal that regurged whether in the first or second week of ownership be placed into a breeding program.

For $6500.00 there ar NO "symptoms" that are normal.

No, what I said was a regurge is not necessarily indicative of a larger problem. Obviously, it's something you have to take careful stock in but it also does not have to mean a serious issue. John didn't worry too much about it but that's not the point here and arguing it is pointless. The issue at hand is Mark taking the animal back. Plain and simple.

Griz

PS Go back and reread Mark's posts. He clearly states he had been breeding for him just before shipping.

Well as they say possession is nine tenths of the law!! though that other tenth can be a real bitch at times. Randy

Mark and I have done several transactions together and zero have had any issues. Mark has always stood behind his animals.

A little over a year ago I purchased a male Spider and a extremely nice female Lemon Pastel. Both animals were flawless when I received them, about three weeks after I got them the female Pastel started to act funny, she was "cork screwing" and freaking out when anyone touched her. I informed Mark of this and he immediately showed concern and offered any help he could provide, I informed him I was going to take her to my vet and see what he said. After some blood tests and a couple weeks of different treatments it was determined that she had developed a brain tumor. I informed Mark of this and he was very sympathetic and offered to "make it right" however being a breeder and dealer myself I know that he had absolutely nothing to do with her tumor and I couldn't morally expect him to do anything since he could not have known she would develop the condition, the animal was perfect in every way when I got her from him.

My point is this, as mentioned earlier in this thread when dealing with live animals there are losses, there is no guarantee how long any of these animals are going to live, and just because one animal cost $6500 and another is $100 shouldn't mean that one gets a different set of guide lines. There are risks involved when dealing with living animals and unfortunately death is one of them. Just because Mark offered to take the snake back shouldn't make him responsible for it's death, especially considering it's pre-existing condition before he got it back. I know that I have had some animals that I have gotten from other breeders that I know I was more than capable of taking care of but when I got them they developed eating problems, I have sent them back to their previous owners to eventually get them back eating again. These animals can be very finicky at times. I can't tell you how many car rides I've given to non feeding Ball Pythons and Boas to get them to eat again, some times it works and some times it doesn't. It seems that Mark taking this snake back is being used against him instead of it being seen as a last effort to save the snake.

My last comment on this post will be this, at what point during a sale does the seller's responsibility stop and the owner's begin? I say at the end of the seller's TOS, and this shouldn't be voided out if the seller is trying to help get the animal back on track well after the TOS has expired. I think expecting a seller to compensate you for an animal that you bought several weeks ago, let alone several months ago is asinine and just not fair.