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Old 01-02-2005, 05:34 AM   #41
Lonermon
correction ... i stated

nor have i ever been bitten or caused anyone else to be bitten .

i misstated
ive never been bitten by a hot snake . i can honsetly say in the hundreds of snakes that ive handled i have been bitten . probably less than a dozen times though . :scatter:
 
Old 01-02-2005, 09:16 AM   #42
Gregg M
Ok, listen up..... You are right, the insults can be uncalled for at times..... The mocc is beautiful as are all N. American pit vipers..... And you may not be a complete moron...... I still doubt you have a 189..... But you need to understand the serverity of the situation at hand..... Your photo post shows everyone this.....
0 respect for venomous snakes.
0 reguard for this hobby. Your actions can push banning.
0 regaurd for the resposable hot keepers that take every precaution.
0 respect for the laws in your area.
You are also showing new people that cutting corners and freehandling might be OK in some situations but in reality there is no situation that calls for freehandling.....

Now I have many friends here on the forum.... If I were to post a pic of me with a baby gaboon (or any hot) in the palm of my hands I would get the exact same reaction you got..... And with good reason..... And as for the bad dealers, they get theirs too.....

This is how I see you at this point..... You are a person that has very little knowledge on venomous snakes and venom..... You are misinformed as to the nature of these animals...... You lack respect for what they can do to you if you are bitten during freehandling...... You do not understand exactly what a bite to you can do to the rest of us that do the right thing by not putting ourselves in a situation like you do.....

I also see that you like these animals..... But unfortunatly, that is not enough..... You need to respect them...... And that is something you CLEARLY do not do..... Hopefully the person willing to train you will wake you up a bit..... I still cant see how a licensed keeper is willing to train you, knowing you take stupid risks like this.....
Anyway, good luck....
 
Old 01-02-2005, 09:21 AM   #43
Mustangrde1
I will try and make this as short and to the point as possible.

Show me ONE newspaper article or ban on animals because or related to a BAD seller/store?

Yet I can Show you HUNDREDS of bad press and direct respocne attempts and Bans because of people who get bitten as the press will call it " thier pet snake"

Now do you see why whe do not condone the action and do react so fast to somone doing what WILL not might but WILL affect are rights and ability to keep the animal!`
 
Old 01-02-2005, 05:44 PM   #44
snakegetters
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg M
You are also showing new people that cutting corners and freehandling might be OK in some situations but in reality there is no situation that calls for freehandling.....
For the most part I agree with you completely. As for this statement, it depends on how you define freehandling. I agree that there is no reason to "play" with a venomous snake as you would a nonvenomous one. That's just stupid. I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who use animals as props for their personal ego, especially when they win Darwin Awards for their silliness.

However there are a few species that are physically fragile enough to require special measures for their veterinary care and even some routine husbandry handling, because they are at high risk of being injured or stressed to the point of severe debilitation if they are restrained. These are the animals I am likely to use my hands to lift rather than just a hook. I may use a bare hand on the lower midbody and a Kevlar gloved hand on the upper third if there is not a second person available to wield a python hook for better body support of the animal. Or a standard hook may be used just to lightly direct the head, with my hand and arm comfortably supporting the snake's weight.

I also don't normally use restraint to give routine injections. I generally just maneuver the head into a tangle of something to keep the business end occupied. It's annoying when using the aminoglycosides and other potentially nephrotoxic drugs because then you have to inject into the front end of the snake, and that gets a little trickier. Generally I resort to tubing for those procedures. But anything that isn't cleared by the renal portal route generally gets delivered as an unrestrained IM injection into the caudal end in adults of most species.

I don't really consider this freehandling, and I don't ever do it just for fun, but certainly there is a greater risk to the handler with these practices. I make the conscious choice to skirt a thinner edge of safety for myself so that I can optimize recovery in my patients and maintain some delicate species without stressing or injuring them. It is a pretty thin margin sometimes, and there are moments where I am within physical range to be bitten if my predictions about the snake's behavior are wrong. There are also times when I am not using any safety tools, but working mainly with my bare hands to minimize the risk of injury to the animal. Again, not something I would ever do just for fun. That's definitely not the point of the exercise.

I don't post pictures of some of the riskier techniques I use, because they may be misunderstood out of context as endorsing "daredevil" behavior around venomous snakes. I get endlessly frustrated because most people get the absolute opposite message from what I intend to convey. I just can't seem to explain in a way that most people understand that it's not supposed to be about the handler at all.

Most people seem to be solidly set in the egocentric mindset that it's all about the handler's skill and daring. That's all they are capable of seeing when they look at a photo of a cobra being gently nabbed behind the hood so that it can be given humane veterinary treatment without the need for rough pinning. They tend to see "Mighty handler masters the terrible cobra" in that kind of image, and that is the diametric opposite of what is actually happening here.

This is what I try to convey to people, without much success. I am not the important factor in this equation. Don't bother paying much attention to the human. The person doing the handling is not interesting and not relevant to what you should be learning from this scene. Focus on the special needs of the wild animal patient and the humane, gentle techniques being used to give good quality care without putting the animal at risk of injury. Most people can't understand this viewpoint and would rather stare at the Mighty Snake Master, which makes me annoyed and uncomfortable.

I feel that the whole concept of the "Mighty Snake Master" takes the focus away from the animals' comfort and welfare and makes them props for the human ego. I don't think that is healthy for either the snakes or the people working with them.
 
Old 01-02-2005, 10:25 PM   #45
Gregg M
Well what I mean by freehandling is what we saw in the pic..... I do not see a reason to freehandle a mocc at all...... I guess there may be a couple of species that would be easily sressed when restrained like you said, but the big majority of snakes do not need a hands on approach...... The most hands on I ever needed to get was either tailing or with tubes....... The way I see it, is if it is mandatory to handle a hot in a less safe manner because of its delicate nature or is easily stressed by handling tools, so be it...... But if someone is doing it to take pics and to show off coloration or to just show off, that someone is showing no respect for the animal or this hobbys responsible keepers...... I do not wish a bite on anyone but I cant say I would feel bad if it did happen..... Thanks for the post Tanith..... Full of good info as usual......
 
Old 01-03-2005, 12:43 AM   #46
Lonermon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg M
Ok, listen up..... You are right, the insults can be uncalled for at times..... The mocc is beautiful as are all N. American pit vipers..... And you may not be a complete moron...... I still doubt you have a 189..... But you need to understand the serverity of the situation at hand..... Your photo post shows everyone this.....
0 respect for venomous snakes.
0 reguard for this hobby. Your actions can push banning.
0 regaurd for the resposable hot keepers that take every precaution.
0 respect for the laws in your area.
You are also showing new people that cutting corners and freehandling might be OK in some situations but in reality there is no situation that calls for freehandling.....



This is how I see you at this point..... You are a person that has very little knowledge on venomous snakes and venom..... You are misinformed as to the nature of these animals...... You lack respect for what they can do to you if you are bitten during freehandling...... You do not understand exactly what a bite to you can do to the rest of us that do the right thing by not putting ourselves in a situation like you do.....

I also see that you like these animals..... But unfortunatly, that is not enough..... You need to respect them...... And that is something you CLEARLY do not do..... Hopefully the person willing to train you will wake you up a bit..... I still cant see how a licensed keeper is willing to train you, knowing you take stupid risks like this.....
Anyway, good luck....

since when are you qualified in speakign for everyone ?

ive got alot of respect for venemopus snakes and if you cant gather that from my posts then your really not reading them

my actions ? i posted one picture and the minute i realised that it offended anyone i removed it . you wanna threaten me with banishment for standing up to false accusations and slams on my character . i dont wanan be banned , but i will NEVER sit back and take crap without having my fair say . in real life or the internet i wont be abused and sit there silently . only on the internet i respond much more politely .

as for respect . i dont feel that i have disrespected anyone . if you feel that ive disrespected you by posting a picture then you have some issues that have nothjgin to do with me .

no respect for the laws in my area ? hmm you must have missed where i have repetedly mentioned that i no longer possess an illegal snake amd am willing to devote a huge chunk of my life (1000 hours to be exact) with no pay towards makign it legal for me to own a venemous snake .you also must have missed where i stated that i would in no way from this point on do ANYTHING to risk that legal right .

you might wanna look back . everythign i said has been an answer to a question or an accusation that you or one of your well respected friends has thrown out . are you honestly gonna sit there and tell me that i cant respond and answer the questiond that you have posed to me ? if your didnt want my answers or my comments then you shouldnt have said anythign . but i dont give a damn if your the forumn monitor or not , as i previopusly stated... you make an accusation agaisnt me , im gonna answer back . you ask me a question im g0onna answer .

as for what i do or dont know . you really have no possible way of knowing . the fact that i handled a snake in an impoprer manner doesnt mean that i know any less .you would assume that i couldnt possibly know having done that . well youd be wrong . nor as so many of you are assuming , does it mean that this is somethign that often do . in fact there jsut assumptions .

and i dont claim to know evertyhtng . in fact ive admiotted id like to learn more from others that have more formal training .

and so far all ive learned here is that people will see somehtign they dont like and turn it into a crusade based on there own specualtions and hair brained assumptions . and every time you post another accusation or try to psycho analise me or things that i have said . you only drive this point further home . you attack i resond . you dont liek the response dont launch the attack . buit dont for a minute imagine that i will sit idly by and keep my mouth shut . i have apoagised for offending others withthe picture , i have removed the picture , i have admitted that what i did wasnt wise . yet still you and others persist in haranguing me . and now you wanna threaten me with bannishment . :scatter:
 
Old 01-03-2005, 01:09 AM   #47
Lonermon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustangrde1
I will try and make this as short and to the point as possible.

Show me ONE newspaper article or ban on animals because or related to a BAD seller/store?

Yet I can Show you HUNDREDS of bad press and direct respocne attempts and Bans because of people who get bitten as the press will call it " thier pet snake"


first .. show me hundreds . im nto arguing that they dont exhist , but you made the offer follow through . hey i have no dount that they do exhist , but id just like to take you up on your offer to show them to me .



Now do you see why whe do not condone the action and do react so fast to somone doing what WILL not might but WILL affect are rights and ability to keep the animal!`
now i see ??? which action are you talkign about . freehandling or me taking a picture ?if your speakign of freehandling then i dont disaggree .
if your talkign abou my picture , which isnt even there anymore and was only viewed by about 16 people . then your 100% wrong .that one picture will NEVER affect the rights and ability of anyone to possess or own venemous snakes . i personally guarantee it .and if by some strange chance you were meaning me freehandling snakes , again youd be 100% wrong . becasue from this point on the only time i will be handling snakes is while workign towards my license . and as i have alrady stated . theres no way in hell im gonna jeapordise that . im gonna do exactly as im told when im told and how il told to and no more . even if it means i clean cages and dont even touch another venemous snake untill i complete my training , then thats what ill do . so as i will not be freehandling any snakes thats a non issue .and trust me on this alothough i am looking foreward to having my permit i am NOT looking foreward to dealign with some of the more agressive and deadly snakes . :scatter:
 
Old 01-03-2005, 01:31 AM   #48
Lonermon
[quote=Gregg M]Ok, listen up..... You are right, the insults can be uncalled for at times.....

oh gee in that case just let me know which ones were called for so i know when to be offended. :scatter:
 
Old 01-03-2005, 01:33 AM   #49
thesnakeman
DUDE!
You screwed up period! Not us, not them, ...you. You screwed up when you bare handed a venomous snake, you screwed up again when you took a picture of it. And you screwed up a third time when you posted it. So now you are feeling the heet. Well, that's o.k. because it's NOTHING compared to the heet you will feel when you get tapped. And if you don't wake up, admit you screwed up to yourself, and learn from this mistake, guess what? Sooner or later you will get tapped! Just prey that when it happens it's not by something a little hotter than that Moc. I tell you what. Go talk to Bill Haast about what it's like to get tapped. I know a kid who had the same attitude as you. A couple years ago, he got tapped by a Rihno Viper. They took him in the helicopter, and he was almost dead by the time he got to the hospital. And now he only has nine fingers. It only takes ONE mistake to cost you your life! And that mistake will take place in the blink of an eye. There is NO ROOM FOR ERROR!!! And when the press gets ahold of it, the Humane Society, and PETA will use that information to help them in their continuing effort to put a total ban on ownership of herps in this country. How do you suppose it is that your state got the current hot laws that it has? It got them because people do stupid things with snakes. So when you do something like this, it DOES effect us all. Therefore we all have the right to heet you up. Better you feel the heet from us, than from a venomous bite!
T.
 
Old 01-03-2005, 02:25 AM   #50
Lonermon
So when you do something like this, it DOES effect us all. Therefore we all have the right to heet you up. Better you feel the heet from us, than from a venomous bite!

im sorry im not buying it . i refuse to admit that my picture ,which has been gone for over a week . has affected you in any way shape or form other than to give you the false impression that you can unabashedly "heet me up"

and i can prove you wrong 100%

that picture was taken in november .
since then it has not appeared in the news .
since then no one has looked at it and decided to get bit
since then it has not been the focus of any legislation to change the current laws in this state or any other .

that picture has had NO effect on the herp industry at all .

you wana go on and on about people gettign bitten . no one was bitten . no one will ever be bitten by that picture . i guarantee it . its jsut a picture .

out of respect i removed it .
maybe i should define that word as it seems so many people that post here have no concept of what it means except in relation to a snake .
it is possible to respectfully tell someone that what they did is wrong . a few people have done that . most of you dont seem capable of it .

to anyone that wants to or has told me that freehandling is wrong . hey no problem . ill agree to that . ill even admit that i shoundt have taken that picture .

you wanna tell me that posting a picture gives you the right to hurl personal insults ? go to hell. im not buying it . there are a few people that have managed to convey there displeasure without makign accusations , claiming to know what i know or think or what my "attitude" is.to all of you armchair psychics . keep your day job . casue you really havent a clue .

you wanna tell me ive got no respect for venemous snakes , heh , well youve never seen me catch an eastern diamondback . believe me , i have pleanty of respect . you wanan disagree go ahead . youd be wrong .

you wanan tell me ive dammaged the industry . bull**** .

in fact . had y'all not chosen to make such a federal case out of this the 16 people that saw the picture would likely have said " thats a nice snake " or "he shouldnt be doing that " and it would have ended there . had anyone ever said to me

" hey i dont liek that picture becasue it sends a bad image , the image that its okay to free handle snakes . would you please take it down "

i would have said
" damn i didnt think of that . your right . " and deleted it .
instead you all come on like a liek a pack of hyenias . throwing insults and making really stupid assumptions .

but no one did that . in fact it was my idea to remove it . and i did . and here we are a week later . and now im being told that some of the insults were okay. do you really think that you have anything to say on this matter that hasnt been said ? do you really think one more person telling me how im ruining the industy is gonna change anythign ?

ive already made the only change i can . i deleted the picture :scatter:
 

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