Underground Reptiles

After searching around online, and looking at pictures, I have a hard time believing that Gecko was three weeks old or more and/or that it was an established eating healthy gecko before being sold. But thats with limited information. I simply do not know what a normal size and appearance is for a Crestie that age. I do sorely regret not knowing enough to call them and make them aware of what was going on with the Gecko as it happened.

Mr. Ritzer,

I have attached a link to a video of part of our gecko breeding facilities. Again my practices of selling geckos at 3 weeks old is not unheard of or unsafe. You were sold 4 crested geckos that you somehow divided up into what you are stating are three 6 quart tubs. The smallest tubs I use for hatchlings are 12 quart tubs. Siblings that hatch out together are kept in one 12 quart tub until they have their first shed which at the longest I have seen take about 3 days. Most shed within one. After shedding the animals are placed in separate tubs, because as I mentioned before babies can grow at different rates and this can sometimes be a problem when it comes to competing for food. Once they are well established, young juvies, females will be kept together and males kept seperately. As far as the picture of the animal goes, I'm not sure when it was taken, but I know you were sent a healthy animals, this is affirmed by your own email. Ultimately you waited over a month to contact us with any questions or concerns. I would have been happy to help. I don't consider myself the guru on keeping rhacodactylus, not even close, but these animals are dear to my heart. I spend countless hours working with and caring for these animals. Bottom line is you were sold healthy animals at a proper age and size. Please watch the video if you have any concern over my husbandry practices. Also note, since that video was made further upgrades and changes have been made to our husbandry to increase breeder success and optimum gecko health.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-IjGG-GVaY

Did it again.

Ryan Borkan

Four animals between four 6 qt. tubs, not three. WHen did I state that I housed them in three tubs? I stated from the get go that I housed them individually. You concluded somehow that because I only sent you a photo of one of them that I must have had them all in there. I'll take another photo again just to verify that if I have to. Your constant insistence that I must be housing them together is rather irritating.
The photo of the animal was taken on September 1st. That is date they were taken and posted to my facebook page. That is the way the animal appeared two weeks after I received. It was at that point that I noticed the animal was looking dehydrated.
If you would entertain the notion that I did give the gecko proper care, with appropriate temperatures, humidity and drinking water, could you offer an explanation then as to what may have caused the Gecko to decline in Health so quickly? The only thing that I can think of is that for some reason, it did not recover from the stress of being shipped. If I had thought the Gecko was unhealthy the day I received it, I would have contacted you. If I had thought that the Gecko was undergoing anything more than the stress of shipping, I would have contacted you.
I have seen the video footage of your Gecko breeding facility, and I was and still am quite impressed.

As Ive stated, I made sure the humidity was correct and provided water in a dish and by regular misting on a daily basis. This gecko in particular was even provided with a small moist hide. Despite seeing the Gecko drink droplets of water after misting, it still began to look more and more unhealthy and deyhdrated. You are correct, I did not unfortunately contact you until it was too late, and the Gecko had died. It also seemed that after I sent the photos, your attitude in text changed from one of concern and being helpful to being cold, short and seemed to insinuate that I had improperly cared for the animal to the point of neglect. This, even though I was simply asking for help, not for a refund, and I was not contacting you to hold you responsible.
Between that, which left me feeling a bit sore right after my Gecko had died, and the fact that I had had another bad experience with receiving animals from your company I decided to come on here and relate my experience as well as my decision to no longer purchase animals from your company.
Again, I do not find your husbandry practices lacking. If I had, I would not have contacted you. Its just that I do not understand what would have caused this particular Gecko to decline in health so quickly after receiving it while the other three are doing well.

Here is a photo with the fourth (now empty) enclosure. I housed them in smaller enclosures starting out because I was under the impression that if they were given too large of enclosures, they would feel insecure and have trouble locating food. Except for the now empty little ones enclosure which I placed a deli cup with a hole in it that contained moist paper towles, each enclosure was set up with a triple layer of paper towel substrate, small dish of water, an artificial vining plant on one side and open space on the other, as well as wads of paper towle beneath the vines for them to hide in if they wished.
Each one was placed in their own individual container.

Originally Posted by ronritzer

there you go, there are the three starter containers I house the remaining three in. There used to be a fourth. So theres the proof.

Where do you get the idea that I stated I divided them up into three containers? AM I Bill O'Reilly now, are you trying to put me in the spin zone? Sorry, this is the no spin zone.

Mr. Ritzer,

I'm sorry if you feel that my questions seemed short or cold. The truth is I asked these questions out of confusion and concern. First concern for the gecko, and because you yourself stated that you were relatively new to caring and housing these animals. I think such questions were warranted. The confusion comes from your own statements that the geckos were all healthy when they arrived, and then finding myself reading an email that one gecko was never healthy and never ate 5 weeks later. I asked questions of housing based on pictures and lack their of that I received. From the beginning I have just asked for pictures of the whole habitat. I have also been curious to how you know what temperatures and humidity levels have been kept at. I hope and would like to believe from the pictures you sent that the animals were kept properly, but you seem to neglect to understand my concern for the pictures you sent of a recently deceased gecko(1 day) that was obviously severly dehydrated and stuck in dry shed. These are the reasons I had questions. You also seem to not understand why I questioned what had taken you so long(over 1 month) to even notify us of your concerns. From your emails and BOI posts there seems to be a sense that either we did not care for the animal properly or sold it too early which would imply that we were somehow at fault for its passing. Thus I have provided you with a video of my facilities and explained how I care for hatchlings and what age they are sold. I also believe that the purpose of your posts was to somehow damage and discredit our business or its practices. This is why I have met you here to discuss this further. If I have done something wrong or owe you something then by all means please let me know but be reasonable. The bottom line, as I have reiterated numerous times, is this, you received healthy animals(according to your own statements displayed in email), my husbandry practices and the sale of crested geckos at 3 weeks old or older is up to proper standards(as the video shows and I further explained), and finally you waited 5 weeks before even notifying us that you had any problems with one of the geckos(which is well beyond any warranty offered in the industry especially when working with geckos and having never been notified beforehand).

Ryan Borkan

The animals certainly did appear healthy when I received them, though the one that dioed was very small, he did not at that time appear dehydrated. It was not your questions that seemed cold, but your response with your advice.
If you would like a close up of the enclosure, and exatcly how it was set up for this gecko, I will have my girlfriend take a few close ups of it, as Im not able to work her camera properly.
The temperatures of the enclosure were taken by placing the probe of a digital thermometer inside the terrarium, which usually did not differ much from the temperature of the rest of the room. Humidity was gauged by placing a hygrometer inside the terrarium and taking a reading off of it after some time had passed. I would also take note of the mositures of the substrate and condensation on the walls of the enclosure, even though I understand that condensation does not mean a higher humidity level per se.
Your questions were certainly warranted, but your response and advice seemed to either ignore the fact that I had answered those questions or implied that I was lying. Judging from your responses, it seems to be a bit of both.
Obviously you could tell the gecko was dehydrated judging from its live photo, but I do not understand how you could tell it was dehydrated by looking at its corpse that had sat wrapped in paper towel for a day. Of course, the gecko was very dehydrated and stuck in "dry shed" as you put it, thats why I contacted you.
If you still do not understand why I didnt contact you sooner I will explain. When the geckos arrived they appeared healthy to me, and I informed you of such. The first sign that the gecko was having trouble was when it did not complete a shed after being here for about a week, maybe less. I did not contact you because I attributed the problem to a humidity issue and took steps to correct it. The next issue was that the gecko wouldnt eat, in fact none of them would eat CGD, but would eat newborn dubia nymphs. This one wouldnt eat at all, though I had frequently witnessed it drinking. I have read in several places that after receiving them they can be stressed and may not eat for up to three weeks, given that, I assumed it was normal and did not contact you. I noticed the gecko was looking dangerously thin on September 1st after photographing it. I should have contacted you at that point, but it had already been two weeks ( the terms and conditions link on your website is a dead link, but I was under the impression it was something like six days). I attributed this problem to its not eating due to stress, and began trying methods to entice the animal. After having no luck, I began adding pedialyte to the water. At this point the animal began to rapidly decline, and it was at that point that I contacted you, not because I wanted you to give me a refund, not to file a complaint, not blame the whole problem on you, but to ask you for help and advice. Unfortunately it was too late by that point, even though all the advice that you HAD given were things that I had already been doing.

Is it unheard of to you that geckos can get stuck in shed because they are sick? I am not implying that you did not care for the animal properly. What Iam saying is that either there was something wrong with the animal that you were unaware of, or that it didnt recover from the stress of shipping or both. I dont hold you or your company responsible for either possibility. I did voice some concerns and possibilities, and my main motovation of posting this information (in a good guy thread mind you) was to relate my own experiences with your company and my decision not to purchase anything from you anymore. As I understand it the purpose of the BOI is to provide information. I related my experience with Underground reptiles, which is receiving a dead frog that was poorly packed for shipping, and having one out of the four geckos I received die weeks later for reasons I do not understand. If that information may cause someone to think twice about ordering from you when weighed against any other testimonials posted to this forum, then it is what it is. My intention was to provide information, not cause direct damage to your companies reputation.

You still seem to be under the impression that me querrying you for help with my sick gecko was a "notification:" that there was a problem with your services. While I suspect that the gecko had some sort of problem that I believe you werent aware of was besides the point. I contacted you asking if there was anything I could do, not if there was anything YOU could do, aside from provide tips and advice after evaluating the problem. Your evaluation, probably due to the fact that you didnt want your company held liable, would not even approach the possibility that the gecko had an underlying health problem, or that it was having trouble recovering from the stress of shipping or anything like that, but that the only thing you could point towards was that I had somehow managed to neglect to provide proper care to my gecko. Iam well aware that 5 weeks is well beyond a warranty, but that isnt why I contacted you. I contacted you as oppossed to say, inquiring on a forum, was because I felt I would get a faster response with a higher quality of information.
The only thing you have done wrong was respond in a somewhat denfensive and dismissive manner after I informed you my gecko had died and provided you with the information you asked for. As I said, it added insult to injury (an injury I do not directly attribute to you, only the insult). I do not feel that you owe me anything at all. I would like you to however provide me with an explanation of why, in your opiniuon, a young and supposedly healthy gecko would rapidly deteriorate in health and die only weeks after being shipped to a comsumer, supposing that the consumer provided adequate care for the animal. Iam not ruling out the possibility that I have made some mistake in their care, but lets suppose this gecko was in the care of someone that you know was taking proper care of the animal and the result was the same, what do you think may have caused that.
Also, if there is any more information I could provide you with that may help me ensure that Iam taking proper care of my animals, that would be helpful as well. And this out of pure civility, I dont think eithe rone of us owes the other anything at all....oh, but a small bit of condolence on the loss of my gecko would be nice. Despite what you may think, I provided this gecko with extra special care in the short time i had it, and its loss was somewhat saddening to me. Thank you.

Ron, this is a big reason why I prefer to buy from "small-time" hobbyists/breeders. You rarely have the issue of getting an animal that "slips through the crack" so to say. Most Rhacodactylus breeders (the good ones anyway) are very picky and anal about the babies they send out. Most will hold them back longer than a large scale "assembly line" type vendor will.

When dealing with a high-volume wholesale type seller such as Underground, you have to understand there is a chance you may get something subpar.....and its not an insult, its just a matter of numbers and logistics.

Yes, Im aware of that, and that is how I feel about this situation. I stand by my care for the animals I received. I do admit that the gecko was not obviously unhealthy when I received it, only that it was noticeably tiny compared to the others. I stand by my desicion not to order from Underground Reptiles again, not out of spite for them, but simply because the two experiences I had with ordering from them in the same month both ended in unfortunate results. Im sure there are many others who in fact have had better luck and only good experiences with the company and their animals. I however have not had such luck.