Cold Blooded Creations

Ok, so I replied to an ad CBC had up on kingsnake about some rough green snakes he had.

He replied back, and we set up a date/time for me to drive the 90 or so miles to Vancouver, WA from Olympia, WA to see them on Thursday.

He never gave me an address, when I asked him for one, I didn't hear back the first time in time for me to head down there. So I didn't go, and sent him another email saying I'd like to try on Saturday (today) so he sent me another email giving me his number so I could call and get directions.

I tried to call him on Friday, got his machine. I kept trying throughout the morning, as he told me he's only around from 8am to 12pm. I left several messages, and he never called me back-I also emailed him several times, no response.

Now I had to go to Oregon on Saturday, so I tried to again call him in the morning. No response. I tried again around the time (11am) that I had set up to see him. No response. I tried again later on, and finally gave up, leaving him another message about how I really did not know how to get there, and I would really liked to have seen the snakes.

So yeah, its another bad guy post I hate to do this, but being rude is no way to run a business. I shudder to think what would have happened had I just sent him $$ and had him mail me the snakes.

I hope there was a good reason for his unavailability-he seemed like an honest guy over email, too bad I never got to talk to him over the phone.

Deleted - violation of FULL NAME rule.

Not responding to a series of calls and emails is not a good way to do business.

Maybe there was a legitimate reason?

You should notify them by email that this thread exists and we'd get to hear their side of the story (you might too) and why calls and emails were not responded to?

Just a thought!

They finally emailed me back yesterday (I just got back from Oregon today) and explained that they both work 40 hour a week jobs, plus running the business.

They were nice enough to apologize for the miscommunication, and hopefully we'll be able to set up a better time for me to drive down there.

I really hate making 'bad guy' posts.. but when I don't know what's going on.. its a little frustrating.

They did say someone would get in contact with me today (via phone I think) but I haven't heard anything yet.

I hate to point this out but "I work a forty hour a week job and run a business" is a crappy reason to not responding to several Emails. I work a 40 hour a week job to and I doubt that any customer I have ever dealt with has waited more than 7 or 6 hours for an E Mail response.

I agree with Scott and John. If you are in internet sales you should abide by those rules. A rapid reply to every e-mail even with a short answer is usually expected. Potential buyers usually visit several sites before making a decision. Having said this I don't think that based on this incident alone one could label Cold Blooded Creations as bad guys. The fact is they never gave you their address nor did both of you set a final place where to meet. Slow to respond, yes. But in the past I have had high profile breeders take their time to respond. It's their business after all...

Regards

I would like to say that I have done business with CBC on several occasions, and never had a problem. Jeff has always responded to emails and phone calls within one to two days. I live close to Vancouver and have visited his home (where he houses his inventory and collection) several times. The animals that I have bought from CBC have been healthy and in great condition . This is an accounting of my experience, I don't think Jeff and CBC are "bad guys" I think they are just very busy... Thank you for your time.

Paris Vachon
Herps4U

I was considering a purchase from Cold Blooded Creations (aka cbcreations). I read the above posts and was not dismayed about the slow replies regarding availability and so forth. I was most interested in what I could find about the quality of animals that they sold and do sell. The only post in this thread so far said that animals obtained from them were great. I also looked at a thread about Cold Blooded Creations dated April 2002 in which the only reply said some pythons purchased from them were also great. See http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1838&highlight=cold+blo oded+creations.

So I sort of figured I would buy a pair of Desert Iguanas they had up for sale in an ad at kingsnake.com. (I think that is where it was .) So I initiated a chain of events that eventually led to my purchase of the pair of Desert Iguanas. Too bad that I did not heed the warning signs, now I believe that those of you who said that slow replies were no way to run a business were seeing a red light of which I did not take heed.

I have all of, or at least most of, the emails between CBCreations and myself saved. I asked a bunch of questions about these lizards because I figured they were wild caught - which the seller readily said they were. I wanted to make sure that they were healthy and that they had been treated for parasites. Here is a copy of the questions I asked with the reply sent to me:

Glenn,

Our system has been down the last few days and we're just now getting back to everyone. I've followed your questions with an answer in the below text. Let us know if you've any further questions.

Thank you,

CBCreations


>From: gbarthgwt@aol.com
>To: cbcreations@hotmail.com
>Subject: Message about: 1.1 Desert Iguana
>Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 19:40:42 -0500 (CDT)
>Received: from king5.kingsnake.com ([209.198.140.165]) by mc8-f40.law1.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Sun, 17 Aug 2003 17:40:43 -0700
>Received: (from www@localhost)by king5.kingsnake.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h7I0egQ18591;Sun, 17 Aug 2003 19:40:42 -0500 (CDT)(envelope-from www)
>X-Message-Info: JGTYoYF78jEHjJx36Oi8+YDSEg8qKPPD
>Message-Id: <200308180040.h7I0egQ18591@king5.kingsnake.com>
>Return-Path: www@king5.kingsnake.com
>X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Aug 2003 00:40:43.0814 (UTC) FILETIME=[5B646C60:01C36521]
>
>Hi,
>
>I am seriously interested in the pair of Desert Iguanas you have for sale, and would like some information about them to help me decide if they are for me.
>
>1) I am assuming these are W/C; if that is correct how long have they been in captivity, and about how old were they when caught?
>
>2) From what locality were they obtained?

We received them in a shipment of Nevada animals

>
>3) How old do they appear to be?

I would estimate their age at two to three years, young.

>
>4) Have they been treated for parasites?

They have been treated for parasites a few times.

>
>5) Are they a definite sexed pair - one male and one female?

1.1 definitely

>
>6) Have they mated and produced offspring before, if so how many times have they mated in captivity?

Have not produced in captivity, though previous owners did not attempt to breed them either.

>
>7) Are they apparently healthy and eating well?

They're exceptionally healthy, eating a mix of greens and insects.

>
>8) Are they free from defects such as scars, missing toers etc...?

As far as I know they're flawless, nothing that stands out anyway. I will do a more thorough search and let you know if I find anything.

>
>9) How do you ship, and how much would shipping cost to Mineola, NY 11501?

We ship via UPS, next day delivery is $30.00 live arrival guaranteed.

>
>10) Do you guarantee live and healthy arrival?

Indeed.

>
>Thank you for your anticipated attention to this inquiry.
>
>Best regards,
>Glenn Bartley
>
>----------------------------------------------
>Click on (or cut and paste into you browser's
>location window) the URL below to view the ad that
>this message is in response to.
>
>http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?de=119799&cat=34
>
>
>----------------------------------------------
>This message was sent by an unregistered or non logged in user.
>
>Sent 07:40 PM, Aug 17th, 2003 from I.P. Address 205.188.209.42
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Get MSN 8 and enjoy automatic e-mail virus protection.

Well although it took them some time to respond to my inquiry I figured that all else seemed well. I should have figured better if only because of the apparently, in my opinion now, lame excuse they gave about not getting back to me in a timely manner. When you combine that with their alleged prior track record about lack of timeliness - well it should have hit me over the head; but sadly it did not. Yet timeliness is not my concern, they actually sent out what I wanted when I requested them to do so - so they were in fact timnely with delivery as requested. I thought that a good sign at the time I received my order. What concerns me was the health of the animals I received. As you can see in my questions above I was concerned about that from the get go.

I was rather happy that the seller claimed the lizards had been treated for parasites a few times; and that he stated they were EXCEPTINALLY HEALTHY and eating a mix of greens and insects. That eased my concerns about their health quite a bit. Before the sale the seller answered most of my other questions in what seemed a satisfactory manner. So I placed an order. The lizards were delivered on time - no delays - that was nice. When I opened the box I was truly dismayed by the condition of the female of the pair. The female seemed either dehydrated or emaciated. Her tail was a bit sunken in, the bones of her pelvis were covered by saggy skin, her ribs showed somewhat through her side skin, she looked skinny and had loose skin, her spine seemed to protrude through the loose saggy skin. She was somewhat listless. The male seemed ok but was in the same bag as the female. There was also a third lizard in the shipment, a Desert Collared Lizard baby, that was in a deli cup. I had not ordered this and was surprised to find this bonus. This was a nice gesture - but to be truthful I had no desire to have a collared lizard - which by the way wound up being parasitized despite looking healthy at first. It was more a pain in the butt than anything else - nice gesture or not!

I immediately wrote an email to cbcreations about the condition of the female Desert iguanna:

Subj: Re: Message about: 1.1 Desert Iguana
Date: 9/5/03 8:45:49 AM Mountain Daylight Time
From: GBartHGWT
To: cbcreations@hotmail.com


Hi,

I just received the 1.1 Desert Iguanas and what I am guessing is a Collared Lizard bonus. I appreciate the extra lizard.

I am a bit concerned about the female Desert Iguana. She looks very dehydrated or possibly undernourished. She has a lot of loose skin, is not plump like the male, and her spine is begining to protrude somewhat. I would like to know if she has been eating regularly. Also please let me know what medication(s) you used to treat her for parasites if any, and when last treated so I can treat her with an appropriate med.

I am a patient guy, and will gladly give her a while to see if she improves; however if she does not improve I will contact you again about a possible return unless you have another policy and want to make arrangements sooner. If you want me to take her picture now, let me know - I have to take a film shot and get it uploaded to disc if you want to see it. The male, on the other hand looks plump and therefor well hydrated and well fed.

Thanks for the shipping to my work address, and for getting it out yesterday; and again also for the other lizard. I'll be in touch.

Best regards,
Glenn Bartley

Here is the reply I got:

Subj: Re: Message about: 1.1 Desert Iguana
Date: 9/5/03 12:10:15 PM Mountain Daylight Time
From: cbcreations@hotmail.com
To: GBartHGWT@aol.com
Sent from the Internet (Details)




Glenn,

The main reason for the female's seeming lack of girth is the males attempts to copulate. She is eating, collard greens, mustard greens, parsley, cilantro, fresh cut dandelions, mealworms, crickets, and they were both soaked prior to being shipped, we soaked them once to twice per week. I would not be concerned with her not eating, however if she doesn't start eating for you right away contact us and let us know. Also we use flagyl and panacur to treat for parasites. Let us know how things go, glad you're happy with them.

Thank you,

CBCreations

>From: GBartHGWT@aol.com
>To: cbcreations@hotmail.com ("Cold Blooded Creations")
>Subject: Re: Message about: 1.1 Desert Iguana
>Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 10:45:48 -0400
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Received: from imo-m06.mx.aol.com ([64.12.136.161]) by mc11-f6 with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Fri, 5 Sep 2003 07:46:02 -0700
>Received: from GBartHGWT@aol.comby imo-m06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id i.fb.461713a1 (16087) for <cbcreations@hotmail.com>; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 10:45:49 -0400 (EDT)
>Received: from aol.com (mow-d19.webmail.aol.com [205.188.139.135]) by air-id10.mx.aol.com (v95.12) with ESMTP id MAILINID104-3ed73f58a19c1b5; Fri, 05 Sep 2003 10:45:49 -0400
>X-Message-Info: JGTYoYF78jFZOCTrcP+XbhukgLL6PODN
>Message-ID: <04BD2D24.3E11FA3E.0213B656@aol.com>
>X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0
>X-AOL-IP: 63.167.255.201
>Return-Path: GBartHGWT@aol.com
>X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Sep 2003 14:46:02.0880 (UTC) FILETIME=[6DBF3800:01C373BC]
>
>Hi,
>
>I just received the 1.1 Desert Iguanas and what I am guessing is a Collared Lizard bonus. I appreciate the extra lizard.
>
>I am a bit concerned about the female Desert Iguana. She looks very dehydrated or possibly undernourished. She has a lot of loose skin, is not plump like the male, and her spine is begining to protrude somewhat. I would like to know if she has been eating regularly. Also please let me know what medication(s) you used to treat her for parasites if any, and when last treated so I can treat her with an appropriate med.
>
>I am a patient guy, and will gladly give her a while to see if she improves; however if she does not improve I will contact you again about a possible return unless you have another policy and want to make arrangements sooner. If you want me to take her picture now, let me know - I have to take a film shot and get it uploaded to disc if you want to see it. The male, on the other hand looks plump and therefor well hydrated and well fed.
>
>Thanks for the shipping to my work address, and for getting it out yesterday; and again also for the other lizard. I'll be in touch.
>
>Best regards,
>Glenn Bartley


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Need more e-mail storage? Get 10MB with Hotmail Extra Storage

Well about five days later I sent another email about her poor condition. I got a reply saying that if she did not recuperate I would be compensated. Both of those emails are below, mine is an attachment to the one I got back:

Subj: Re: Fwd: Message about: 1.1 Desert Iguana
Date: 9/15/03 9:55:24 AM Mountain Daylight Time
From: cbcreations@hotmail.com
To: GBartHGWT@aol.com
Sent from the Internet (Details)




Let us know the outcome with the female. If she does not recuperate you will be compensated.

Sincerely,

CBCreations

>From: GBartHGWT@aol.com
>To: cbcreations@hotmail.com
>Subject: Fwd: Message about: 1.1 Desert Iguana
>Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 19:21:47 EDT
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Received: from imo-r04.mx.aol.com ([152.163.225.100]) by mc11-f29.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Wed, 10 Sep 2003 16:22:06 -0700
>Received: from GBartHGWT@aol.comby imo-r04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id i.148.18be5fe5 (4426) for <cbcreations@hotmail.com>; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 19:21:47 -0400 (EDT)
>X-Message-Info: JGTYoYF78jEbY/Jn/+UiJnDGjjxHhBG0
>Message-ID: <148.18be5fe5.2c910c0b@aol.com>
>X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6018
>Return-Path: GBartHGWT@aol.com
>X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Sep 2003 23:22:06.0476 (UTC) FILETIME=[598DC4C0:01C377F2]
>
>Hi,
>
>It has been only 5 days since I received a pair of Desert Iguanas from you.
>You assured me that these two lizards were in excellent health, but from what I
>have seen so far the female is in fairly bad condition healthwise. As I
>stated in my email to you on 9/5/03, the day that I received the lizards from you,
>I was concerned that the female was either dehydrated or undernourished. I was
>also concerned about the possibility of her being infected with parasites and
>asked if you had treated her.
>
>Since then she has deteriorated quite a bit. She steadfastly refuses food
>despite caging and heating conditions being correct. She is set up in a tank,
>absent the male (since you told me the male had been attempting to mate her and
>that is why you believed she looked haggard). She has sufficient heat with a
>hot spot up to 115 degrees Fahrenheit and the cool end in the mid 80s. Night
>time temps go down to the mid to upper seventies. Humidity is at abywhere from 10
>to 20 percent - desert dry. There are bricks set up in a pile as hides and
>basking spots, and a play-sand substrate. I have tried feeding her a variety of
>greens, yellow flowers, red flowers (both flowers of types readily consumed by
>Bearded Dragons with no problems), crickets, meal worms and wax worms. She is
>refusing all food. She has lapped up some water droplets. She is sluggish,
>looks emaciated or well on her way to being emaciated (loose skin, tail sides
>shrinking in) and she is no where as alert as the male.
>
>I am about to attempt a force feeding through a feeding tube of a slurry made
>from greens with Metronidazol (generic Flagyl) and Panacur added. Do you have
>any further recommendations or comments about what I am already doing. This
>lizard is really a big disappointment, but hopefully she will pull through.
>
>Best regards,
>Glenn Bartley
>
>
>GBartHGWT
>When I look in the mirror, I am happy to see, some of that nine year old boy,
>who used to be me. (My very own personal quote!)
>
><< message5.txt >>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Get 10MB of e-mail storage! Sign up for Hotmail

I sent one last email, it went like this, and I have not received a reply to it, can you imagine that:

Subj: Re: Message about: 1.1 Desert Iguana
Date: 9/16/03 7:20:34 AM Mountain Daylight Time
From: GBartHGWT
To: cbcreations@hotmail.com



Thanks for getting back. She is still not looking well, but has eaten a few thinjs on her own. I continue to assist feede her giving her mashed up greens on the end of a flat toothpick - once in her mouth she swallows. I also gave her the two parasite meds this way. I will check later today to see if she gained any weight.

This lizard ashould never had been sent out considering her condition, she looked emaciated/dehydrated when I received her, and within a few days looked close to death. I understand you thought that may have been due to the male pestering her with mating attempts, but in the future you may want to be more careful. Heck you even shipped both in the same sack, now I have to treat the male also. I realize there is always a chance of such with wild caughts, but you did say they were in excellent health and that was just not so. This is a lot of work amd worry I would rather not have. I will let you know how she turns out.

Oh well, instead of continuing here, now is a good time to check on and feed them. Then off to work. Thanks again for getting back in touch.

Best regards,
Glenn Bartley

GBartHGWT
When I look in the mirror, I am happy to see, some of that nine year old boy, who used to be me. (My very own personal quote!)

No one has gotten back to me on this one. I wonder why?

The bottom line is that there was a healthy guarantee, and the seller stated that these lizards were exceptinally healthy. Then he gave me a BS story, in my opinion, about the male trying to mate the female and that is why she was skinny. Anyone could have figured she was probably parasitized or at least that she was ill. I would be willing to be she did not suddenly change into the poor condition in which she was received during the time it took to ship her overnight! Is it not funny that although I offered to take a film picture of the female, the seller never asked me to do so! Kind of makes me think either he is extremely trusting, or that he was fully aware of the lizard's poor condition.

As it stands now, the Desert Iguana female is recuperating. She has gained some weight but only after I shotgun treated her three times for parasites, and assist fed her for about one week. She started to feed on wax woirms and would not even look at greens when she first took food on her own. Funny thing is that the male also started to act the same way toward food - so I shotgun treated him and assist fed him too - they were shipped in the same bag and apprently kept in the same enclosure at the seller's location.

And what did I get from the sellerafter I complained, in my opinion, an email telling me that if the Desert Iguana did not recuperate I would be compensated and little more. That is not the health guarantee he gave me in the beginning - these lizards were guaranteed to arrive healthy - the guarantee did not say they would arrive sickly and then have recuperative powers! If nothing else, the seller should have offered me some compensation for the time, medications, and general headache of my having to treat this animal that he guaranteed was healthy. That would have been the right thing for the seller to do as I see it, but he would apparently rather just send emails saying if she does not resuperate then he will compensate. Buyer beware - you may be getting a lot more than you bargained for if you buy from cbcreations - and by that I mean headaches! Hopefully the problem has not spread to my other animals (even though I was careful to quarantine I am concerened).

I have learned a lesson. In my opinion, this guy is not worth buying from and is on the dishonest side (again my opinion). I certainly would not buy from cbcreations ever again the way things were left...

Best regards,
Glenn B

I don't know about anyone else on this board, but if I were to represent an animal being sold as healthy, then it would be healthy before I sent it to a buyer.

No buyer should have to make extra time to take care of a sick animal because of a dishonest seller. I feel sorry for the herp, but it still should not be your responsibility.

I hope you get this solved with them.

I don't even think I would bother them again about it. The female is looking much better, but still far from exceptionally healthy. I paid for them, guaranteed in good health but got them otherwise. I did not lose the money for the lizards because she is still alive, although I lost time, medications and had a general pain in the butt. The seller lost something else, any of my future business. Of course if they wanted to send me some form of refund that would be ok by me, but it would not make me change my mind about doing more business with them.

I don't know, maybe I made it sound as if I was to accepting of the situation in my emails, but I thought I had at least made it pretty plain, in my last email to them, that I was not satisfied having to go through all this trouble to treat them. I am not the kind of guy who immedaitely goes out of his way to demand money back, call attorneys (certainly not at the price for these lizards), or make a really big fuss if it seems that things will work out fairly well. I was pretty sure I could nurse her to health (boy I sound like a newbie buying a sick herp from Petco - but then again she was supposed tobe exceptinally healthy). I guess y point is, I was certainly not looking for a full refund because she seems to be improving but heck even a simple 'we are sorry about that so here is half your money back, or even just 25 percent back', would have been a whole lot better than - will we compensate you if she does not recover.

Oh well, life goes on.

Best regards,
Glenn B