Underground Reptiles: Sick animal inquiry?

My take on the whole thing is don't purchase wild caught water snakes.

Originally Posted by Black Adder

??????
Im sorry but have you even grasped what the true story is here?
Your comments just keep making me think eitger you have not read it in its entirety or you have and still have not comprehended its scope.
Dont forget also the op did not label it as a bad guy thread.
And no i do not mean to start a flame war with you but it does appear you are missing something

No, I've read the entire thread. And like Lucille, I see a lot of conjecture (without the lab results) and a major Chicken Little complex while naming a business.

Sweeping the usual procedures of the BOI and how we come to the conclusions we typically do under the guise of some kind of Apocalyptic fear mongering simply won't fly.

Originally Posted by tcp2

My take on the whole thing is don't purchase wild caught water snakes.

No kidding......if these people are such "specialists" then why are they buying $15 wild caught Nerodia from Underground? lol, makes no sense.

We are all awaiting the results from the lab. Until then, this thread is a call for others to come forward if they have purchased snakes from Underground Reptiles with similar symptoms.

I suggest only those who have the laboratory results and/or additional information about ill snakes originating from Underground Reptiles continue posting at this time. We do not want to bury critical information under a sea of opinions and irrelevant posts. Requests for additional information from those submitting information are obviously relevant posts.

This will be my last post on here until the laboratory results come in, as I have not purchased any reptiles from Underground Reptiles, and have already explained why these ill snakes pose a valid, real concern regarding our hobby and snake conservation as a whole.

I sincerely hope that nothing majorly destructive originates from this post, in regards to a contagion affecting captive or wild snakes....obviously that needs to be handled and dealt with, I also don't just believe things on the internet and require a more thorough examination of verifiable evidence before I take *anyone* at their word in regards to anything involving money (animal transaction or not).

Originally Posted by tim brophy

This forum, the BOI, is far and away the most heavily read forum of Fauna. Move it and this thread may get buried. I believe the topic is important enough to reach the greatest audience possible.

This thread has important discussion material that, when going beyond the topic of the selling party, the buying party, the transaction, and associated matters, is off-topic to the point of review and awareness of the business and deal concerned. If people want to speak to the larger issue of the illness and its broader span of potential effects, that can be done elsewhere and it can be preserved elsewhere on the site. A link to that centralized collection of materials can certainly be provided here for reference, as it will give the potential for broader exposure and awareness that is desired by concerned individuals. That will avoid side-tracking the BOI-relevant portions and serve the needs of multiple perspectives on the multiple issues at play. If the off-topic material is deposited here, it may earn infractions. Just as BOI-relevant material does not belong elsewhere on this site, excessive BOI-irrelevant material does not go on the BOI. That also means there will not be naming of the business in such a discussion in a discussion forum section here that is not the BOI. I believe I am being clear here and providing a suggested solution that can serve both major sets of needs.

Thank you to all who see this is an important issue that deserves wide readership. I spoke with both Underground Reptile and Florida Fish and Wildlife today and USGS Wildlife Health. I have a call in to USFW which can issue rules governing the interstate trade of wildlife. This is an unfolding situation that may take weeks or months to play out.

For those who want to question silly details of timing of vet visits, or whether it is wise to buy water snakes from a wholesaler, or whether they can dig up a scientific journal that calls into question an assumption made years ago, all I can ask is that you stop. Take a deep breath and try to refocus on the issue at hand. Your inability to focus on the issue at hand makes you look silly.

Your opinions on these trivialities really aren't important right now.

I was hoping Underground would jump on here and engage - not about their side of the story - but (as I encouraged them to do) - acknowledge that this is potentially a big deal - not only for their own business, but for our wild herp populations, as well as our captive animals. And also talk about what they plan to do about it.

I'll continue to talk with Florida Fish and Wildlife and report back here what they are doing, what they see as possible future actions, etc. And I'll post the full lab report as soon as I get it. And I'll let everyone know what Federal Fish and Wildlife thinks about all this.

I'm a pretty rational guy. So those who want to throw the "hysterical" or "sky is falling" spear I'd ask you to reconsider - maybe double check your own motivation for your accusations. This may may a big deal, but more likely it is another step in what will eventually (and slowly) be a ban on interstate movement of native, and/or possibly exotic, herp species.

All we can do here is try to focus on the bigger issue - maybe including the role that large scale collectors, importers, wholesalers have on this emerging disease - and try not to get bogged down in the minutia.

Joe

Could you ask the DVM to photo copy his/her SOAP (the chart write up) it would clear a lot of this up... even if under A. it states the presumed problem v. others its still better then just the copy of the bill. I am not saying you didn't receive ill animals, just think you'll have less of a head ache with the Doctors writing to back this up. I am sorry that the snakes are doing poor and may possibly not make it. Best of luck!

I am focused on the issue. You purchased wild caught snakes. They became sick after you had them in your care. The symptoms appeared long after you had them. How would you think the importer would know that they were sick? You did not contact them before going public with the issue. "silly details", water snakes from a wholesaler ( my post)", deep breath" "refocus" "inability to focus" , really? You have sick snakes. Deal with it. Give the seller a chance to help correct the problem. You roll the dice every time you purchase wild caught animals. Especially cheap wild caught animals.

Originally Posted by tcp2

You roll the dice every time you purchase wild caught animals. Especially cheap wild caught animals.

Someone else has come forward stating that they bought a CB water snake from Underground, and it's exhibiting the same symptoms. So, this doesn't seem to be a purely WC issue.

He quite obviously is dealing with his sick snakes - as are some others, it seems. Considering that this thread seems to be more of a PSA than anything, and it may end up saving a lot of people a lot of trouble, I don't really see the need for griping about it. He's definitely not coming across to me as someone who really has any interest in simply assigning blame or getting any money out of the seller. Upon realizing that there were others who were having the very same problem from the very same seller, I think he did the right thing, in going public with the situation. There tends to be a lot of back-alley dealing going on in the herp world, and some of it ends up being really harmful for the masses who aren't privy until it's too late.

This is looking like something that could potentially shape up into a situation where keeping it hidden may have done many people a great disservice. We can speculate about whether or not Underground would have been nearly so proactive in addressing the situation with recent customers, had he gone to them first, but I have my doubts about that. Either way, there's no real point in kicking a guy in the nuts for trying to help the community as a whole, while seemingly asking for nothing from those who appear responsible for putting him in a lousy situation.

As was previously suggested, maybe those of us in the peanut gallery should put the pitchforks away until more relevant information comes forth.