Inquiry Underground Reptiles: Sick animal inquiry? - Page 8 - FaunaClassifieds
FaunaClassifieds  
  Tired of those Google and InfoLink ads? Upgrade Your Membership!
  Inside FaunaClassifieds » Photo Gallery  
 

Go Back   FaunaClassifieds > Reptile & Amphibian - Business Forums > Board of Inquiry®

Notices

Board of Inquiry® This forum is provided exclusively for the discussion of specific persons or businesses in the herp industry.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-23-2016, 10:34 AM   #71
thamnophis123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Logan256 View Post
I have never before posted in the BOI, though I've used it many times. I'm posting now because this thread caught my attention, and frankly, scared me to death. I also purchased a baby water snake from Underground Reptiles on September 20th, though mine was listed as a CB baby brown water snake.
A couple things Logan - First, congrats on your taste in snakes, Nerodia are some of the best you can keep, and that brown is a beauty!

Regarding Underground - The often misidentify the water snakes on their web site, interchanging the photos and descriptions. And since they sent you the wrong species, it makes me wonder if they even know the species they are dealing with, or if they just hope their customers don't :-)

You are the 3rd person who has reported snakes bought from Underground suddenly dying with no outward sign of disease or trauma. If it happens again it would be worth it to have a necropsy done - ask your exotic animal vet if they have the resources to do it. (Don't make the mistake of freezing the snake like I did. Refrigerate only and get to vet or diagnostic lab ASAP)

Regarding captive bred vs wild caught - Places like Underground often pay "collectors" - sometimes also referred to as "winos" - for wild caught animals. If the snakes are pregnant they are tossed into cattle tanks and kept crowded together until their babies are born. So hundreds or even thousands of babies are "captive born" in a very disease rich environment.

I described this scenario to the manager at Underground and he didn't deny or correct it. So you can see where CB might actually be worse than wild caught when it comes to large scale dealers.

The skin lesions or pustules showing on your brown water snake do look like those on my greens. But visual comparison is only part of the diagnostic process. Unfortunately the fungus species in question (O.o.) doesn't culture well, so your local vet won't be able to diagnose SFD accurately for you. (Its too slow growing and overwhelmed by bacteria when cultured. Even treated with antibiotics other types of fungi sometimes outgrow the SFD fungus) So they will probably have to talk to Dr Allender's lab at the U of Illinois. They can instruct on how to collect the samples, process and ship. Analysis there is done by a specific genetic test (qPCR) developed by Dr. Allender.

A note on husbandry ... You've obviously spent time putting together a great home for your taxispilota, which is great to see. Unfortunately plastic tubs just aren't good enclosures for snakes, especially active Colubrids like Nerodia. There is a whole host of problems with them, but lack of ventilation is going to be a big one for this snake.

Snake skin blisters or SFD isn't caused by keeping a snake in damp conditions. Its caused by a pathogen that seems to thrive in warm, moist conditions. The water feature you have is very cool, but is probably producing too much humidity - I think I see condensation? This might exacerbate whatever pathogen is producing the skin pustules. For water snakes I think an aquarium with a screen top might be best, though there are other good options. I buy 40 gallon breeder tanks at PetCo when they have their $1.00 per gallon sales.

Of course that brown will need something bigger eventually, but a 40 breeder would be OK for a couple years I bet.

I would encourage you to call Underground and describe what happened to the animals you bought from them, then let us know how they respond. I asked to speak with the manager which was not a problem.
 
Old 11-23-2016, 10:49 AM   #72
thamnophis123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Schultz View Post
Are you kidding me??? Having a small burden of proof for calling out a company on some hobbyist-run good guy/bad guy forum is one thing. But having that same shaky evidence and using it to call USFW and potentially cost us MORE rules regarding interstate trade? Because your shitty $10 wc water snake developed some blisters in your care, after being in captivity for weeks/months? How about no. Please and Thank you.
Take a deep breath Mike. First of all, my water snakes cost $3.00, not $10.00. And they were not wild caught, nor are they "shitty". At least not anymore than any other Nerodia.

Seriously, if you stop hyperventilating and read, I'm not "calling out some company" and I'm not presenting "shaky evidence" to FWS or anyone else. I'm here trying to gather evidence that might help us better understand the threat of SFD to both wild and captive snakes, and to better understand the role places like Underground Reptiles play in that threat.

I understand there are some people who don't trust the government to make reasonable rules regarding wildlife ownership. I'm not one of them.

What I experienced with Underground, and the subsequent reading I did on the subject indicated to me that there *might* be a problem. All I'm trying to do is gather evidence that will help clarify the threat - if there is one.

All the agencies I've talked to have been very aware of the potential for this problem occurring. So believe me, any role I or the BOI plays will be insignificant. But if anything I do can help keep our native herp population safe from an emerging potentially lethal disease - even in a small way - I'll sure be glad to do it.

If I have to take some grief from people who put their own narrow, selfish interests ahead of the well-being of thousands or millions of wild herps, I guess I'm a big enough guy to handle that too.
 
Old 11-23-2016, 10:53 AM   #73
thamnophis123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Adder View Post
That is actually a very good point, a LOT of people are under the misconception that water snakes ACTUALLY spend the majority of their time submerged in water, when in reality it is quite the opposite.
My water snakes have a huge dish for bathing but have lots of very deep susbstrate and honestly they spend 90% of the time burrowing through the substrate rather than actually in the water.
Just my personal observation.....
Thats my experience too - not only of captive Nerodia but their behavior in the wild. Mine get in the water to hunt and to escape from me when I loom over their enclosure. The rest of the time is spent adjusting their distance from the heat and UV lights. They essentially live in very dry habitats that happen to be next to water.
 
Old 11-23-2016, 11:09 AM   #74
Black Adder
Whoa guys we are getting SERIOUSLY off topic here!
Thread is about Underground and supposedly sick water snakes, remember.....

 
Old 11-23-2016, 11:17 AM   #75
Mike Schultz
Quote:
Originally Posted by thamnophis123 View Post
I understand there are some people who don't trust the government to make reasonable rules regarding wildlife ownership. I'm not one of them.
Considering I currently cannot legally ship a burmese python or a reticulated python from my home state of virginia, into the state of (example) Texas, even though they cannot survive in either one of these states. I cannot understand where this trust in reason is coming from.

When you play with garter snakes and water snakes as a hobby, I can see where it may not be a big deal to jeopardize this by calling undue attention on ourselves. But many of us do this for a living and would prefer not to have our livelihood constantly assaulted by the government for frivolous reasons.
 
Old 11-23-2016, 11:24 AM   #76
Logan256
Quote:
Originally Posted by thamnophis123 View Post
A couple things Logan - First, congrats on your taste in snakes, Nerodia are some of the best you can keep, and that brown is a beauty!

Regarding Underground - The often misidentify the water snakes on their web site, interchanging the photos and descriptions. And since they sent you the wrong species, it makes me wonder if they even know the species they are dealing with, or if they just hope their customers don't :-)

You are the 3rd person who has reported snakes bought from Underground suddenly dying with no outward sign of disease or trauma. If it happens again it would be worth it to have a necropsy done - ask your exotic animal vet if they have the resources to do it. (Don't make the mistake of freezing the snake like I did. Refrigerate only and get to vet or diagnostic lab ASAP)

Regarding captive bred vs wild caught - Places like Underground often pay "collectors" - sometimes also referred to as "winos" - for wild caught animals. If the snakes are pregnant they are tossed into cattle tanks and kept crowded together until their babies are born. So hundreds or even thousands of babies are "captive born" in a very disease rich environment.

I described this scenario to the manager at Underground and he didn't deny or correct it. So you can see where CB might actually be worse than wild caught when it comes to large scale dealers.

The skin lesions or pustules showing on your brown water snake do look like those on my greens. But visual comparison is only part of the diagnostic process. Unfortunately the fungus species in question (O.o.) doesn't culture well, so your local vet won't be able to diagnose SFD accurately for you. (Its too slow growing and overwhelmed by bacteria when cultured. Even treated with antibiotics other types of fungi sometimes outgrow the SFD fungus) So they will probably have to talk to Dr Allender's lab at the U of Illinois. They can instruct on how to collect the samples, process and ship. Analysis there is done by a specific genetic test (qPCR) developed by Dr. Allender.

A note on husbandry ... You've obviously spent time putting together a great home for your taxispilota, which is great to see. Unfortunately plastic tubs just aren't good enclosures for snakes, especially active Colubrids like Nerodia. There is a whole host of problems with them, but lack of ventilation is going to be a big one for this snake.

Snake skin blisters or SFD isn't caused by keeping a snake in damp conditions. Its caused by a pathogen that seems to thrive in warm, moist conditions. The water feature you have is very cool, but is probably producing too much humidity - I think I see condensation? This might exacerbate whatever pathogen is producing the skin pustules. For water snakes I think an aquarium with a screen top might be best, though there are other good options. I buy 40 gallon breeder tanks at PetCo when they have their $1.00 per gallon sales.

Of course that brown will need something bigger eventually, but a 40 breeder would be OK for a couple years I bet.

I would encourage you to call Underground and describe what happened to the animals you bought from them, then let us know how they respond. I asked to speak with the manager which was not a problem.
I'm definitely keeping a very close eye on all of the remaining snakes at this point, and if another one dies I will have a necropsy performed. It didn't occur to me with the first due to all of the potential issues with them being WC and stressed, but I also wasn't aware of this issue when it died. I will pass along the information about Dr. Allender to my vet next week as well.

Water snakes are relatively new for me - I've always wanted one, but was hesitant to buy WC so when I initially saw the CB brown baby, I jumped on it. The enclosure is a tub, yes, but its been modified to be 1/2 screened at the top, which unfortunately didn't show in the pictures. I've taken a few more this morning. The heat source is also an overhead basking lamp, to ensure humidity stays low. The plastic on the tub is well used and old, so that's the haziness you're seeing. The other three (now two) snakes I ordered because I fell in love with the baby brown water snake and wanted to possibly produce real CB water snakes in the future.

Maybe not my best plan, but they are so hard to find CBB.

My CB baby shed last night, and is showing fewer signs of blisters, though she does still have questionable areas behind her head. Otherwise, her behavior is normal. I'm just exceeding grateful to have a better idea of what's going on with her, as without this thread I may not have figured it out before it got worse or I caused myself another problem.

As for buying WC snakes - I agree. You get what you pay for. I bought those three as a hopeful gamble, and when the one passed, I had known the risks and wasn't looking for any form of restitution. I'm still not, nor am I assigning blame. I have other animals from Underground that are thriving.

When I saw this thread, I felt I had to contribute because I was mystified by the bumps my snake began showing and I wanted to make it known to other people that this may be a bigger issue than just the OP's green babies.
Attached Images
   
 
Old 11-23-2016, 11:50 AM   #77
thamnophis123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Schultz View Post
Considering I currently cannot legally ship a burmese python or a reticulated python from my home state of virginia, into the state of (example) Texas, even though they cannot survive in either one of these states. I cannot understand where this trust in reason is coming from.

When you play with garter snakes and water snakes as a hobby, I can see where it may not be a big deal to jeopardize this by calling undue attention on ourselves. But many of us do this for a living and would prefer not to have our livelihood constantly assaulted by the government for frivolous reasons.
A couple things - I agree we are getting off topic, so I won't respond to off topic posts anymore (after this one :-)

I found quite a lot of Indian pythons not far from Delhi, where street people routinely freeze to death and the temps regularly dip below freezing. I've also caught burmese in south Florida happily sunning themselves after a night of sub-freezing temps. So your assertion about where they can live is nothing but speculation in my opinion.

The fact that you squeak out a meager existence by peddling b-grade animals to unsuspecting 14 year olds doesn't mean you should be exempt from regulations designed to protect our collective wildlife resource, or our private collections. (See, both of us can play that off hand, denigrating comment game, can't we?)

Now, lets please get this thread back on topic: Underground Reptiles and SFD.
 
Old 11-23-2016, 11:53 AM   #78
Mike Schultz
Quote:
Originally Posted by thamnophis123 View Post
peddling b-grade animals to unsuspecting 14 year olds
Lol correct, the nerodia market in a nutshell.
 
Old 11-23-2016, 11:53 AM   #79
thamnophis123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Logan256 View Post
When I saw this thread, I felt I had to contribute because I was mystified by the bumps my snake began showing and I wanted to make it known to other people that this may be a bigger issue than just the OP's green babies.
Thank you, thats exactly what I hoped for. Please update with pics if your snakes' condition changes.
 
Old 11-23-2016, 12:04 PM   #80
Logan256
Quote:
Originally Posted by thamnophis123 View Post
Thank you, thats exactly what I hoped for. Please update with pics if your snakes' condition changes.
Will do. I'll be following this thread closely and will also report back after my snakes have been to the vet, or if any more die or develop symptoms.
 

Join now to reply to this thread or open new ones for your questions & comments! FaunaClassifieds.com is the largest online community about Reptile & Amphibians, Snakes, Lizards and number one classifieds service with thousands of ads to look for. Registration is open to everyone and FREE. Click Here to Register!

 
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
UnderGround Reptiles should stay underground reptilerenegade Board of Inquiry® 69 09-16-2014 10:47 AM
Should I pay shipping return for a sick animal? mattc General Business Discussions 14 03-04-2011 05:03 PM
Inquiry: Underground Reptiles CFoley Board of Inquiry® 3 05-12-2003 11:21 AM
Rian AKA Underground reptiles Inquiry kimtall Board of Inquiry® 4 04-29-2003 05:23 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:57 PM.







Fauna Top Sites


Powered by vBulletin® Version
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Page generated in 0.06164503 seconds with 11 queries
Content copyrighted ©2002-2022, FaunaClassifieds, LLC