The Jungle Florida

Yet another case where the OP shows with bright lights what an incompetent person they are, the exact opposite of what they intended. I hope nobody sells you ANY animals from here out Mr Cruz.....you don't deserve them based on your lies and husbandry negligence.

Appears the true "bad guy" has come to the surface here. Denying any animal vet care is cruelty. Do not buy an animal if you do not have the funds for a vet if needed.

Additionally, it appears that you wanted, and maybe even attempted, to breed your chameleons. What was your plan if the chameleon became egg bound which from what I understand is fairly common for these animals?

The Jungle never said they bred this chameleon, they were upfront about the fact that there was no health guarantee, and despite this tried to propose a fair solution. Not overly a fan of wholesalers/retail outfits but they were not the bad guys here.

Originally Posted by Snake-Queen

There is no actual proof that the cham was sick. The loose stool could've been from stress due to shipping. It may or may not have been dehydrated. It could've been injured during shipping. It may have had an underlying issue that didn't present itself till after the stress of shipping. We will never know as the OP callously watched the animal die.

Without a vet report, we cannot say that the seller sold a sick animal. I'm not saying it isn't possible that the seller sent a sick animal, just that there is no evidence either way.

The TOS was fulfilled. If the OP didn't like the terms, he could've bought a cham elsewhere.

After reading all this I went back to look at the OP's first photo of the female and the stool. I see a pretty normal looking cham with full eye turrets, decent body condition, good grip, and alert behavior. The loose stool looks like the result of shipping stress or even a longer than normal drinking session while recovering from the trip. It could have been evidence of a parasite problem too, as stress can give them the upper hand in a hurry. Of course there could have been something underlying but we'll never know. The shop admitted they hadn't had this female long....possibly such a short time that even they wouldn't catch a subtle health problem. They are not expert breeders.

Sadly, my conclusion of this whole sad event is a novice buyer who expected a cham to arrive and be ready to breed, and it didn't happen. The female wasn't permitted to acclimatize, was introduced to the male, and it was all too much. She went downhill and the OP sat and watched, unwilling to spend a dime more on her. If this had been my purchase I would have been on the phone to the vet and then to the seller, telling them what was going on. That cham would have been to a vet regardless who was going to pay a bill for it. So sad she is gone and had to suffer.

OP, you lost me at "no, I didn't take it to the vet, I didn't want to spend the money". If you aren't going to provide care to a sick animal, then don't have pets.

I'm not sure if the cham was sick or not, but it's possible for a healthy looking animal to decline after the stress of shipping. That's why many (most?) sellers offer a LAG only. These aren't books from amazon, they're living animals. There is a certain degree of risk. The seller offered you a very generous replacement (by industry standards) which you chose to decline.

I think there are some credibility issues here - you implied a vet had seen the animal then when directly asked you admitted that you had not taken it to a vet. I also think you would have taken pics of the box if you thought the shipping wasn't correct. I think you knew full well you were making a bad guy thread - I mean come on. I hope you will honestly answer the question that has been raised about putting the new cham in with your male.

And we aren't all sellers here - I am not. I also have no experience with the Jungle and if I thought they had done wrong I would say so. The questions that are being asked of you are fair, and to imply that everyone on the BOI is conspiring to shield a seller is ridiculous. Go read some other threads. Does it look like everyone here agrees on things?

I am digging this new post-mortem methodology though... we should implement it for county coroners! Just think of the time and resource savings... detectives and hospitals could just... send them pictures of dead people, and they could simply take a look and reply with cause of death lol.

Or... that's INSANE, and this buyer should be ashamed of himself for waiting until his animal died to involve a vet.

Alvin, it sounds like you are the latest in a very long string of people who have learned enough about reptiles to be dangerous, and in doing so, have fancied yourself qualified to breed a species that is clearly out of your league at the current time. Let me guess what your business plan was:

1. Buy male and female chameleons
2. Put male and female together
3. Lay box or something
4. Try to remember to feed them
5. Babies
6. Profitz

Am I close? You have no business breeding a species you can't even keep properly. You made a purchase from a seller that offered only a Live Arrival Guarantee (LAG), and then complained about their guarantee even after it arrived alive. You were more worried about getting details of their Terms after the fact than you were about possibly trying to nurse the chameleon back to health, either through a vet visit or advice on forums. There isn't a single post here on Fauna, or on any of the large chameleon forums asking for advice on how to help them survive... you simply saw your 'investment' not panning out and started to bully the seller way past their Terms and WAY past what they reasonably owed you.

If you don't have the money to provide for care, including surprise vet visits, don't get the animal. Also, if you want an animal where you can just put males and females together with little knowledge, or time, and have babies to sell, my I recommend cockroaches.