Adenovirus questions

Hello,

I agree Beth, mad was just the only word that came to mind. I knew that it would be an uphill battle when I started this, that is why I took my time doing so. It is very frustrating. All I am asking for is help from larger breeders to continue to gather data to get things done, but without any tests, we cannot, or the vets cannot get data to learn more about it. That is a pretty simple analysis of the situation. We need more cooperation but at this point, we definitely wont get it.
I do think it could be possible for them to get an immunity to it, as long as the virus does not mutate into another type of virus which can sometimes happen.
I just hate to even have to expose them to virus' in captivity that they normally wouldn't be exposed to in the wild, it doesn't seem fair to the animals. It most likely would not be around near as much in the wild, as they are not bred like they are in captivity.


Tracie

I work with kids with cancer and don't know much about adeno in lizards. But I do know that we as humans all carry adenovirus and because we have healthy immune sytems it very rarely makes us sick. On the other hand, when our immune system is compromised by cancer and then by chemotherapy, then the immune system in humans cannot fight all the things that are dormant in our bodies. Thats why our kids get Epstein Barr Virus, Cytomegalovirus, adenovirus, zoster, fungal infections, etc. I do agree that more research should be done with lots of lizard ailments from lymphoma to leukemia, to kidney and liver failure, to adenovirus to respiratory infections. We can be carriers of adenovirus just as our beardies can be. They may be carriers of other things and even be colonized as well but have built up some sort of immunity to other things. This is a controversial subject, I do agree, and wonder if there are any answers at this time. If tests are not sensitive enough at this time to detect for certainty, it may just be a waste of money to test, nless you indeed have an ill dragon. Even then, I know there is only a handful of antiviral medications on the market and they can be very kidney & liver toxic to humans. I feel that if your dragons are healthy, the offspring are healthy, then if a test does say they are positive does it mean they should be put down, or does it mean they are just carriers or colonized? Where is the point where it becomes a danger? After they are sick is too late. But as a carrier, they can still be the healthiest dragon around. Take care Tracie, Beth

Hello,

Well, I still feel that if someone is going to breed, that the ethical thing to is to test. The PCR & the Fecal are acceptable measures to test for the presence of adeno. Yes, they shed, we all know that, but that is what we have & it should be used.
Vets say it is the ethical thing to do is to test to give full disclosure to clients. I agree. I don't think it is professional to have a wait & see attitude when there are alot of problems with adeno virus today.
That is just the thing, without continuous testing, we can't answer any of that as to "where is the danger zone" or "what levels are acceptable", etc, etc.
There was a time here in the US where adeno was not a problem, but alot of the earlier breeders ignored & it has gotten much much worse despite the warnings from the leading vets on this subject. If the colonies had of been closed, & breeding ceased for awhile, it could have been contained.
It is sad, really that it could have been stopped but wasn't.


Thanks.
Tracie

It seems that there were die-offs and problems for a while in some people's colonies, and now things seem to be leveling off. I have not heard of anyone this season with mass die-offs. Do you know of anyone who bred this year and had high hatchling mortality? I still think the worst is probably over.

Jamie

I think we are not seeing the hatchling die offs because the some people have tested and NOT bred them. I know of a few people with positive results that chose not to bred this year.

I think all breeders should at least make an effort to test once. It really shows responsibility and ethics if they do. This is my personal opinion and one that I tell anyone that asks about good breeders.

If I were in the market for another dragon, I would not even consider a breeder that does not test. Having experience with adeno positive dragons, I know first hand that stress can cause major issues due to the lack of immunity. But adeno causes more than just lack of immunity. How does anyone know that letting this virus continue won't cause major issues with future dragons. What if they don't get immunity from this virus, than what? What if it mutates and causes major deaths and all the dragons in the US could be at risk, than what?

I have 2 big, healthy looking POSITIVE dragons. It took until they were two years old and endless amount of money to get them to this point. I have no clue what their future will bring though.

Sandy

Originally Posted by pscaulkins

I think we are not seeing the hatchling die offs because the some people have tested and NOT bred them. I know of a few people with positive results that chose not to bred this year.

But what about all the people that have kept right on breeding? What about the "big breeders" that supposedly have adeno in their colonies? Shouldn't their animals all be dead/dying by now if adeno is a killer? I have breeding stock from these big breeders. Why am I not seeing die-offs? Why are my dragons not sick?

I think all breeders should at least make an effort to test once. It really shows responsibility and ethics if they do. This is my personal opinion and one that I tell anyone that asks about good breeders.

If I were in the market for another dragon, I would not even consider a breeder that does not test. Sandy

Out of curiosity, how much testing do YOU consider the right amount to determine if a dragon is positive or negative? One test does not determine anything at this point. So are you as a consumer willing to pay a considerable amount of money - which it would take to compensate the breeder for several rounds of testing, not to mention the extra cost of food, housing and electricity while this dragon is growing up and going through round after round of tests? Even if a breeder only tests his or her breeding dragons (which still leaves doubt as to the status of the babies...what if mom and dad's immune system has oppressed the virus to the point that it is not shedding at the time of testing), you are looking at a greater price for offspring to compensate for all of the breeding dragons being tested. I am afraid that the average person, when considering buying a dragon, does not really care. They just want a healthy pet. Let's say "Joe Blow" has a reputation for selling dragons that are supposedly adeno-free. He asks a whopping $500 for his "thoroughly tested" babies. And let's say that "Jane Blow" has a reputation for selling healthy dragons who have undergone no testing. She asks $80 for one of her babies...who also happen to come with a health guarantee. Most people would make the choice to buy from Jane. Most people don't have the desire to spend tons of money on an animal that might just die anyway for a variety of reasons completely unrelated to adenovirus. It may sound harsh...but it's the cold, hard truth.

Not picking on you, Sandy...but your post was good for making my point.

Jamie

I have to compare this to our human lives. You have a doctor-you do not want to accept what he has told you- you get a second opinion. You have faith in your doctor...perhaps you hear bad news....you seek out a second opinion-that is your right. Ok here goes....you have a breeder...he illicits good faith to you...nothing is wrong...you buy a dragon from him....it is your choice, your right, and your reponsibility to research that breeder as it is to be responsible for your own healthcare.
You obtain references from your breeder as you would your own doctor...hopefully before choosing either...there is always a bad apple in every bunch...there are bad bad doctors out there...as well as everyone would believe: bad bad breeders out there. Whose reponsibilty is it???We pick and choose our human OB docs and our kid's pediatricians...we pick our human breeders , lol...they are our spouses..., the breeders pick our dragons moms and pops....how is it any different than making a gut educated researched decision of who we may buy our next juvenile from. Come on guys...you may adopt a child....then later in life they have leukemia and die on you. Whose fault is it???? I think I am over this discussion...are you expecting more for your beardies than what is reality out there for our human species? Please get a grip and know that the breeders you know as well as the human doctors you choose are your choice...if its not the best choice...so be it....but if you make the hard search...then you know and will be satisfied....Take care all beth

And the vets you choose to take care of your beardie's health. I just read this this a.m. and sorry if it came throgh as a little harsh. It was not my intention. Take care all, Beth

Originally Posted by Valley Dragons

But what about all the people that have kept right on breeding? What about the "big breeders" that supposedly have adeno in their colonies? Shouldn't their animals all be dead/dying by now if adeno is a killer? I have breeding stock from these big breeders. Why am I not seeing die-offs? Why are my dragons not sick?



Out of curiosity, how much testing do YOU consider the right amount to determine if a dragon is positive or negative? One test does not determine anything at this point. So are you as a consumer willing to pay a considerable amount of money - which it would take to compensate the breeder for several rounds of testing, not to mention the extra cost of food, housing and electricity while this dragon is growing up and going through round after round of tests? Even if a breeder only tests his or her breeding dragons (which still leaves doubt as to the status of the babies...what if mom and dad's immune system has oppressed the virus to the point that it is not shedding at the time of testing), you are looking at a greater price for offspring to compensate for all of the breeding dragons being tested. I am afraid that the average person, when considering buying a dragon, does not really care. They just want a healthy pet. Let's say "Joe Blow" has a reputation for selling dragons that are supposedly adeno-free. He asks a whopping $500 for his "thoroughly tested" babies. And let's say that "Jane Blow" has a reputation for selling healthy dragons who have undergone no testing. She asks $80 for one of her babies...who also happen to come with a health guarantee. Most people would make the choice to buy from Jane. Most people don't have the desire to spend tons of money on an animal that might just die anyway for a variety of reasons completely unrelated to adenovirus. It may sound harsh...but it's the cold, hard truth.

Not picking on you, Sandy...but your post was good for making my point.

Jamie

We don't know if the big breeders are having die offs. Do you really think they will advertise this? No one has a clue who is having die offs because no one wants other people to know.

To be honest, one fecal test is enough for me. I realize that it could be a false negative but not always. It's better than nothing.... It shows responsibility to me anyway.

Keep in mind, I would have rather had the decision to have adeno dragons than not. BTW, one of my breeders tested and quit selling after getting a positive from the mother. The other continues to breed and sell but I know for a fact her hatchlings are weak because I know someone that purchased one and it died quickly and was ill.

Jamie, after the experiences I have had, I would pay $500 for a guaranteed adeno free, totally healthy dragon that the breeder tested. But than again, I don't plan on ever getting any more.

Mine are not sick either but it doesn't mean it they won't get something down the road.

Jamie, have you tested yours?

I am not picking on you Jamie either. You did make a good point though.

No, I have not tested. It is kind of hard for me to justify spending thousands of dollars testing animals for a disease when they are not sick, and the babies that they produce are not sick. In my mind, that kind of defies logic and common sense.

Jamie