Bill Hagan - BnE Reptiles

It finally happened, I have been forced to come to the BOI with a negative issue I am directly involved in.

Take a trip to the bathroom, and grab a cup of coffee. I am going to try to get this all down in one post. (or several if I run out of space).

I knew better than to do what I did, but was rushed and overly anxious to make a sale (seems to be a common denominator on the BOI), so I took the risk and got burnt.


The current issue: William "Bill" Hagan (username: triplehdiesel763 ) owes me $125.00 for a proven breeder female ball python, which he is currently in possession of. Mr. Hagan may still come through, as he still claims he is working on a way to pay me, or ship the snake back, but has failed to communicate any certainties.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

April 1st, Mr. Hagan emailed me about my snakes. He decided he was interested in a sub adult pastel male ball python. We discussed a few details, and he asked to speak with me directly.

We spoke on the phone and he ended up changing his mind, and wanting my proven breeder male pastel. Mr Hagan also expressed some interest in buying several other snakes, and possibly my whole collection.

He called me back later, with a proposition. He wanted a female that was ready to breed. I looked for a female that still might go this season(athough really late), and got back to him. On the phone he explained that he couldn't pay for the female, because he was in the middle of some loan paperwork(for five dump trucks) and couldn't withdraw anything from his account until the papers were processed.
Mr. Hagan said he could send me the money for the female on the upcoming friday (apr 9th), and that we could just wait, and do a separate transaction for the female after I shipped the male pastel he just paid for.
Or, if I was comfortable, He said I could throw the female in with the male pastel which he had already payed for via paypal, and send her out on the 5th of April to save shipping costs. He offered to pay me $125(she was listed at $115.) on friday April 9th. for me "financing her".

Mr. Hagen appeared very professional from the way he handled paying for the male pastel, and like a great guy on the phone. He also mentioned forwarding my collection list to a few friends(Greg Graziani, and a couple others) who might be interested in some of my stuff.

I felt it was worth the risk, and decided to break the number one rule..shipping unpaid-for goods.

The snakes arrived in good shape, and he called and emailed as soon as he picked them up. He was very happy, and we talked for a bit. He had paired them up, and the male seemed very interested in breeding with her already. He even offered me some of the future hatchlings.
That was Tuesday the 6th of April.



Now things start happening.


12am on April 9th, the day I was supposed to receive $125. via paypal, I got an email from Mr. Hagan(who uses his wife Eloise's email apparently):

from Eloise Hagan <triplehdiesel763@frontier.com>
to Andy Jeffries <andysreptiles@gmail.com>
date Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 12:03 AM
subject problem
hide details Apr 9
andy this is bill hagan i was just called by my sister my mother passed away tonight i have to go to delaware to set up funeral arra. i will call u saturday with payment i am very sorry i will still pay u your money but i am going to be late
thanks bill hagan

Sorry to hear his news, I replied:

Reply
Andy Jeffries to Eloise
show details Apr 9
No apology necessary! I am truly sorry to hear that.

Whenever things settle down is fine. Do what you need to do now, i'm not in a hurry to get the money.

Thanks for letting me know.

-Andy

(my wording"when ever things settle down" was vague, but I assumed it was a given that I meant within a "reasonable time period".)

Eloise Hagan to me
show details Apr 9
I WILL CALL U AS SOON AS I RETURN THANK YOU VERRY MUCH

I received no word, so I sent another email 5 days later.

Andy Jeffries to Eloise
show details Apr 14
Mr. and Mrs. Hagen,

I hope things have calmed down, and your family is doing well.

I didn't receive the payment for the female I sent along with the male pastel, and wasn't sure if you had a chance to send it yet?

Also,
I have had a couple inquiries within the past week about the collection, and wanted to touch base with you first, since you were first interested. Are you still interested in the female axanthic and spider, and or the whole collection?


Thanks,
Andy

No reply.

8 days later:

Andy Jeffries to Eloise
show details Apr 22
It's been another week without any word from you, please contact me ASAP. -Andy

Eloise Hagan to me
show details Apr 22
Bill will be home on Monday the 26th and he said he will call u as soon as he gets here ok Andy I am very sorry for the delay

Didn't receive the call on the 26th, So I called on the 29th. The phone rang multiple times, and then went to answering machine. I left him a message and follow up email.

Andy Jeffries to Eloise
show details Apr 29 (6 days ago)
I called today, and left a message, as I didn't receive any call on Monday.

-Andy

Eloise Hagan to me
show details Apr 30 (6 days ago)
Andy this is Bill I am home I buried my mother and everything went fine until I got home I returned to work and got fired my phone is temp. dis. That is why your call did not get answered I am selling off some of my stuff so I can pay my bills and pay u or give me a week and I can ship u back your female I am very sorry but all this hit me at once I have the internet until it gets shut off I have your number can u please send me your mailing add so I can mail u a payment or your female if you wish again I am very sorry I wanted so many more of your collection please respond asap so I know what u want thanks bill

(edited my address)

Andy Jeffries to Eloise
show details Apr 30 (5 days ago)
Mr. Hagen,

I am sorry to hear of this.

My mailing address is:
xxx xxxx xxxxxx street Apt. xx
xxxxxxxx xxx pa, xxxxx

What day will you be mailing it out?
If you wouldn't mind, could you please send it with a tracking number? as that is my school address.

Thanks,
Andy

didn't hear back, so I sent this:

Andy Jeffries to Eloise
show details May 2 (3 days ago)
Mr. Hagen,

Please confirm that you received my email, and let me know what action you are taking.

Thanks,
-Andy

I then got this..

Eloise Hagan to me
show details May 2 (3 days ago)
Yes I sent u an e- mail I will resend it

He re-sent me an email to which I had already responded to.

Reply
Eloise Hagan to me
show details May 2 (3 days ago)


From: Eloise Hagan [mailto:triplehdiesel763@frontier.com]
Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 11:54 AM
To: 'Andy Jeffries'
Subject: RE: Touching base

Andy this is Bill I am home I buried my mother and everything went fine until I got home I returned to work and got fired my phone is temp. dis. That is why your call did not get answered I am selling off some of my stuff so I can pay my bills and pay u or give me a week and I can ship u back your female I am very sorry but all this hit me at once I have the internet until it gets shut off I have your number can u please send me your mailing add so I can mail u a payment or your female if you wish again I am very sorry I wanted so many more of your collection please respond asap so I know what u want thanks bill do u want the money or her back I am selling my stuff off to pay u

I explained that, and resent my original response:

Andy Jeffries to Eloise
show details May 2 (3 days ago)
I received that email on the 30th, and responded later that evening with the following,

"Mr. Hagen,

I am sorry to hear of this.

My mailing address is:
xxx xxxx xxxxxx street Apt. xx
xxxxxxxx xxx pa, xxxxx

What day will you be mailing it out?
If you wouldn't mind, could you please send it with a tracking number? as that is my school address.


Thanks,
Andy "

got this short answer:

Eloise Hagan to me
show details May 2 (3 days ago)
I will e-mail u as soon as I mail it

Andy Jeffries to Eloise
show details May 2 (3 days ago)
I would like to have a date please.
Will you be mailing it with a tracking number?

-Andy

Reply
Eloise Hagan to me
show details May 2 (3 days ago)
I am getting last payroll check on 7th will mail out on 10th w/ tracking number ok sorry again for problems u still r a great guy Andy

Andy Jeffries to Eloise
show details May 2 (3 days ago)
Mr. Hagen,

Your previous email stated that you were selling some belongings in order to pay me, and other debts, and that you could either pay me, or if I waited until "next week"(the week of the 3rd) you would send back the snake.

It has been 23 days since the date you originally agreed to pay me(Apr 10th), and 28 days since you received both snakes(Apr 5th).

I think it would be best if you just shipped back the snake tomorrow(on the 3rd). I am sorry but I am not able to wait until the 10th to receive a payment.

-Andy

Reply
Eloise Hagan to me
show details May 2 (3 days ago)
I received them on the 6th and if I had the 40.00 dollars tomorrow I would send her back to u but I don’t have any money or gas in truck to get to ups I know my problem is not yours but I am doing the best I can I will see what tomorrow brings I will update you asap please believe I have no intention on ripping u off IAM VERY SORRY

Reply
Andy Jeffries to Eloise
show details May 2 (3 days ago)
That was my mistake, I shipped on the 5th, and you were correct in that the snakes arrived on the 6th.

I would like to have your home address, as a form of assurance/ability to contact, as you said your phone has been shut off and the internet will be next.

Our phone conversation, and you explaining how you were in the process of purchasing five new dump trucks for your business, makes it hard for me to understand how you are unable to come up with $40 to ship the snake back?
I don't think I need to tell you how to secure the funds, but it is not hard to find a friend with a spare $40 to loan, and UPS can take credit cards.

I am going to have to ask that I have the money by may 6th.

If not, I will be forced to take action, involving the Board Of Inquiry on Fauna Classifieds, as well as the local authorities and the FBI Internet Fraud Devision.


-Andy Jeffries

Eloise Hagan to triplehdiesel, me
show details May 3 (3 days ago)
Ok I was never ignorant to you in any way sir. If u wish to involve the authorities, my full name is William a Hagan jr. My correct address is Po box 148 Nemours, WV 24738, but I live in Wolfe, WV and there is no mailing address here.
That’s why it’s a Po box. We live on a mountain and the us gov. shut down our post office, so to continue, I was going to buy trucks but when I lost my job I have no income. Now I cant get the loan I don’t have available credit, and I don’t write bad checks, The local sheriff’s office is Mercer County, and the sheriff’s name is Don Meadows. I will pay u or ship your snake back to u as soon as I get the 40.00 dollars, or the previously agreed sale price via pay pal. I did not expect this to happen to me so I did not deceive you in any way or commit any internet fraud. I am now telling you I will contact u to let u know again what I can do. I am going to take some things to the pawn shop here locally to come up with the money as I already stated to u in previous e-mails. I am sorry that this happened again. I fully understand that this is not your fault ,and again I am doing my best to rectify my problems. They r a lot bigger then this I also have a family to feed. If this is still unacceptable to u then u can do what u feel is necessary. U r still an upstanding business man and I hope we can get through this as painless as possible.

Reply
Andy Jeffries to Eloise
show details May 3 (2 days ago)
Mr. Hagan,

I never claimed you were ignorant in anyway.

Look at it from my perspective, I am out of a snake and the cash It was worth.
I have waited and tried to be as accommodating as possible, but I have to draw the line. 28 days is more than a reasonable amount of time to possess an unpaid piece of property without paying for it.

I am quite familiar of the sellers #1 rule, never to ship without cash in hand, as it is asking for nothing but trouble. In the 8 or so years that I have been selling reptiles, never once had I violated that rule until now. I made the decision to take that risk after speaking with you, with the hopes of gaining more credibility as a breeder coupled with the necessity of dissolving my collection as fast as possible.

I will be waiting to hear from you, and am continuing to adhere to my given deadline of the 6th.

-Andy

So there it is. Today was the deadline I gave him to resolve the situation before I came to the BOI. It has been 26 days since the original date he agreed to pay me, and 30 days since he has had the snake in his possession.


I have not yet contacted Paypal, UPS, the IC3 or the local authorities.
I was hoping to resolve the situation without taking it to them, unfortunately it appears I will have to.

This is the first time I've had to handle something like this, so I'd appreciate any advice.

I do not know Mr. Hagans home address.
What I thought was his home address was the UPS store address( he has it listed as his shipping address on his paypal account). I had never shipped a package and had it held for pickup before.


I have a few other emails I didn't post, as I didn't think they were necessary. (One was from his wife, Eloise asking what the snakes name was, and what their children wanted to name the snake.)

I have screen shots of paypal payments and some other stuff if they are needed.

Mr. Hagan was notified about this thread, via email, upon posting.

I hope he will show up, to elaborate. He says he intends to pay me/ship the snake back, but certainly doesn't seem to be placing it high on his priorities. Even him just touching base with a voluntary update would have been appreciated and helpful.


-Andy Jeffries

Well, I never understand why people ship animals when they are not paid for. Whether you get paid or not, I hope you learned a lesson. How can he use a UPS office as his Paypal address (or did I read that wrong)? Post his name and the address you have for him and maybe someone can get his real address. Hope you can get your money.

If he has that as his paypal address, is it possible he works at a UPS drop off store at that location?

Originally Posted by brd7666

Well, I never understand why people ship animals when they are not paid for. Whether you get paid or not, I hope you learned a lesson. How can he use a UPS office as his Paypal address (or did I read that wrong)? Post his name and the address you have for him and maybe someone can get his real address. Hope you can get your money.

I started to explain, but edited it out, as its not the point of the thread, and I would have only sounded like excuses. long story short, I need to have all my snakes gone within the next month, so I took the risk.


His full name and address are in his last email to me, up above.

You were correct in that he listed the UPS store's address on his PayPal account. He was able to, I assume, because he didn't get it verified. At the least, I expect paypal wont like to hear of that..

Originally Posted by crotalusadamanteus

If he has that as his paypal address, is it possible he works at a UPS drop off store at that location?

He did say he used to work for a couple different carriers services, but I don't think it is(was) his current job. He assured me that everyone there knew him though, as he goes in to pick up snakes all the time.


Maybe Mr. Hagan will clear this up?

What if he's telling the truth about the income problems? It would be financially wiser for him to send the snake back. Would you accept it returned? Perhaps relieve him of the choice, and just have him send it back anyway. ???

Just saying, our Country ain't exactly at it's greatest financially these days. A lot of hard times going around.

If forty bucks is that big an issue for him, I live close enough that I can drive down and pick her up. In a public place, of course, and with a friend with me.

Sorry to hear this Andy, you're a good guy.

Originally Posted by crotalusadamanteus

What if he's telling the truth about the income problems? It would be financially wiser for him to send the snake back. Would you accept it returned? Perhaps relieve him of the choice, and just have him send it back anyway. ???

Just saying, our Country ain't exactly at it's greatest financially these days. A lot of hard times going around.

Yes, I would accept the snake back, and told him so, though its not as desirable as the money.

Thats why I waited as long as I did, I was worried everything was true and he was just having a really rough patch.

What made me decide to finally post this, what that it was like pulling teeth. Had he voluntarily contacted me, just to update me, or let me know anything, like how his trip to the pawn shop went (where raising $40 should really not be that hard), I would have felt more gracious towards a time extension.

Originally Posted by MagickalMorphs

If forty bucks is that big an issue for him, I live close enough that I can drive down and pick her up. In a public place, of course, and with a friend with me.

Sorry to hear this Andy, you're a good guy.

What a generous offer!
I really hate to put anyone directly into a situation like this, over something so small, but maybe we can talk about it later?

I'd prefer to see Mr. Hagan step up to the plate, and follow though with an accordance of some sort.

Sorry to hear about that. I know our dealings couldn't have been any smoother. Anyway, I hope this can get worked out quickly. You'd think that someone who was seriously looking to make as large a purchase as 5 dump trucks would have some type of savings.

One red flag I noticed was the name tossing, like saying he's friends with Graziani. If he's such good friends with Greg you would thing he'd have a hook up for a pastel and normal female?