Bad Guy Andrew Hermes of Arizona Tortoise Compound - Page 2 - FaunaClassifieds
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Old 04-15-2013, 05:53 PM   #11
ErikL
I have read Andrew's reply. The bulk of what he has stated is true. That said I will differ on a few points. First, there was never a recomendation to ship to an airport, it was only listed as an option. Second, this is the first time I have been made aware that the tortoise I shipped had died. Third, the main issue I have is that the original box had no ventilation holes and was sealed shut with tape. As to why I did not go to the hub, I was scheduled to work until 3pm and ups said I could not pick the package up until after 10 am. I did not have anyone that could go for me. I agree that this is an unfortunate issue for all involved, especially the tortoises. I am saddened by the entirety of the situation.
 
Old 04-15-2013, 06:00 PM   #12
David Scarboro
Andrew, Maybe I am missing something here, but a shipper is responsible for errors by the shipping company. It was not the OP's fault that the animal didn't make it. UPS won't accept responsibility and that leaves it at your door. If not, what good are your TOS? Anything can be blamed on the shipper and that leaves you blameless doesn't it?
 
Old 04-15-2013, 06:48 PM   #13
Ron Allen
"It is the responsibility of the shipper to adequately package shipments for all temperature extremes and HANDLING CONDITIONS. " When you elected ups as your carrier you agreed to THEIR terms. Effectively negating your TOS. You the shipper are in fact legally responsible for providing the product to the customer as described. You will lose in a court of law.
 
Old 04-15-2013, 07:55 PM   #14
markpulawski
Proper packing is key to live arrival when shipping, even when mishaps and delays occur, though I ship dart frogs, not heavy tortoises. If I spent $3200 on an animal I would not short change on the shipping, Delta Dash and there waiting for it...or even hold for pick up, to say put it on a truck in Arizona is inviting trouble in my opinion. It is clear to me that responsibility lies with both parties here, how the financial part of that gets worked out...well good luck to you both.
 
Old 04-15-2013, 08:25 PM   #15
aleria
Did UPS ever explain exactly why they had bagged up the inner box? Was there an obvious stench or anything when the box was opened?

Typically the only time I have seen this happen is when an animal has defected or died in the process of shipping and it is obvious to them, and rather than thinking logically(or just flat out being malicious) they tie it up in a plastic bag and toss it in another box so they don't have to deal with the stench and/or possible contamination.

But honestly, if the box was not packed well enough to keep there from being an obvious sign of something wrong, enough so that UPS had to bag it, then that is still on the seller.

Could we get a description and pictures of the original box it was packaged in to see if this was negligence on the part of the seller when it comes to properly packing the tortoise for shipment?
 
Old 04-15-2013, 08:39 PM   #16
dieselfan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Allen View Post
"It is the responsibility of the shipper to adequately package shipments for all temperature extremes and HANDLING CONDITIONS. " When you elected ups as your carrier you agreed to THEIR terms. Effectively negating your TOS. You the shipper are in fact legally responsible for providing the product to the customer as described. You will lose in a court of law.
This is flat out not true. The buyer agreed to the sellers TOS. Which absolves him of any liability in THIS case.
 
Old 04-15-2013, 09:27 PM   #17
David Scarboro
Quote:
Originally Posted by dieselfan View Post
This is flat out not true. The buyer agreed to the sellers TOS. Which absolves him of any liability in THIS case.
Please show me where sellers TOS absolves him of any liability in THIS case.
 
Old 04-15-2013, 09:37 PM   #18
Fangthane
Quote:
Originally Posted by dieselfan View Post
This is flat out not true. The buyer agreed to the sellers TOS. Which absolves him of any liability in THIS case.
You're operating under the extremely false assumption that any given person's TOS are universally legally binding. A buyer agreeing to a seller's arbitrary terms, does not instantly take the seller out of a legally actionable position. Terms have to be "lawful" to be binding. There are general consumer protection laws (UCC), and there may also be jurisdictional factors that could come into play.

If the buyer actually has the means and inclination to pursue legal action, I believe that the court would have to deem the seller's terms to be fully in compliance with any applicable laws, for them to be upheld. Is it lawful for a seller to not provide a buyer's item, in the condition which it was described, based on unforeseen circumstances that were out of the buyer's control? While I don't pretend to know a hell of a lot about the legalities, I don't think it'd be nearly as cut-and-dry as some of you would like to make it seem.

On a personal note, whenever I read terms that stipulate that a buyer is SOL in the event of carrier errors, it just comes across as an extremely slimy way of doing business.
 
Old 04-15-2013, 09:51 PM   #19
NIGRO51
UPS would only bag a leaking package.
 
Old 04-15-2013, 10:58 PM   #20
Brandy Pecanic
I hope ATC reads this. We WANT our animal to arrive at destination at 65-70 degrees. Shipping from AZ is possibly more serious than a heart attack! NEXT TIME, RUN AN ICEPACK ATC! Tom is flipping out over your post I just read to him!

Tom and I WILL NEVER let somebody purchase from you! You should refund in full! And we are die hard Tort fans. If you had an ice pack in there, the Tort would have been fine. Just like Anthony said above... they only bag and tag dead bodies!

ATC, you are responsible for that death! BOTTOM LINE! We hope you learn! ICEPACKS, ICEPACKS, ICEPACKS... if you are shipping anywhere around AZ! It's serious business! Real serious business with our heat here!

I'm still learning here too as well, Tom just enlightened me on this entire subject as I though u aren't responsible. I guess we were both wrong... Oopsie! ;(

I'm so sorry for the losses Erik! I wonder what the guy did to yours to kill it in a week? Did anybody do a necropsy? Can we see a pic of it deceased? I'm kind of curious?
 

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