Smoothies

Originally Posted by shadi11

I fully agree with you. And even though the full effects of IBD hasnt been seen in relation to all the dragons yet, it is supposed to be very similar.
If I remember correctly when IBD started it was first ignored by some. and it got worse. Looks like the same is going to happen here.
The scaleless balls are wrong just as this is. Its taking a handicap and making it show in all of them. Would it be right to do this in people? If someone purposly did that people would be inraged but yet it is ok in animals

You're absolutely right Laura. I remember when IBD first made news, and a lot of people didn't take it very seriously at first. It wasn't until it started wiping out whole colonies that people started making a stink about it. It still took the efforts of very reputable people to really make people aware of how devastating it was, and to make serious change in the way the industry did business.
Sadly enough, IBD has still not been eradicated completely, mostly because of the actions of people who just don't care.

You're absolutely right Laura. I remember when IBD first made news, and a lot of people didn't take it very seriously at first. It wasn't until it started wiping out whole colonies that people started making a stink about it. It still took the efforts of very reputable people to really make people aware of how devastating it was, and to make serious change in the way the industry did business.
Sadly enough, IBD has still not been eradicated completely, mostly because of the actions of people who just don't care.

This is my biggest fear in my snakes.. I already had the dragons effected. Knowing there is still IBD I am very choosy of who I get my snakes from.
We have worked about getting the word out about the adeno and the inbreeding issues. And it may take the day that a big breeder steps up because its effected them badly like with IBD and I feel its sad it would have to go to that point knowing what other breeders have gone thru. Even though they arent large breeders its still devistating.

Originally Posted by Denisebme

You're absolutely right Laura. I remember when IBD first made news, and a lot of people didn't take it very seriously at first. It wasn't until it started wiping out whole colonies that people started making a stink about it. It still took the efforts of very reputable people to really make people aware of how devastating it was, and to make serious change in the way the industry did business.
Sadly enough, IBD has still not been eradicated completely, mostly because of the actions of people who just don't care.

Its sad really, but it is the responsibility of ALL of us. People who claim to LOVE these animals. It is OUR job to make these problems known, and Bad or unethical breeders known, and to educate others on how to deal with it, and how to handle those problems if they were to arise.

People should, Who are buying dragons AND Boas and Pythons, be asking breeders the right questions. and while its not very common practice it seems, we should try HARD and make it so. Asking questions like, "Where Did Your Stock Orginate?", "From who did you buy them, and did you produce their offspring yourself?" and "do you know offhand if they produced those animals themselves?" "Have they been tested?" ( for adeno in dragons) and then they should contact THOSE breeders who the person they are buying from, lists. Those few extra emails could help save a person money, or get them a 100% Healthy animal. And with everyone asking those questions, eventually they will be easier and easier to answer as time goes on, because more people will be educated about the animals they have, and those around them.
Sure it sounds like a ton of work now, but its all for the future of the captive bred population, so why the heck not?

This information, as impossible as it sounds, NEEDS to be openly available, and those covering it all up, or keeping quiet need to freaking KNOCK it off. Sure, youre a greedy SOAB, but you know what, if you care about these animals as much as you say you do, DO SOMETHING about it. cause, frankly, you wont be making much money if people find out about that....

Why should everyone else, and ALL of these animals suffer because of these peoples greed for cash, or their NEED to have babies always available? How much harder is it to look for, and keep clean colonies of dragons? How hard is it to use proper quarantine procedures, and prevent diseases like this from spreading? honestly... is it SO hard that a person cant pay attention to these things?

Originally Posted by shadi11

And this is a good idea. I am fully behind it. But then theres all that dont listen. or dont care. Those numbers are alot higher. Though sad its true.
Since my dragons were positive I tried to help and get involved and most the time people ended up hurt. And the ones being honest and doing the right thing drug down that rocky road.

Another post I am in complete agreement with.
I really took a beating on the BOI when I took a stand on AV, it was not a pleasant experience and the people who know me well know that not only did I lose sleep over it, I was actually reduced to tears, not a normal state for me. Its amazing how personal the attacks became, and I wasn't out trying to change the world, I never attacked any breeders, I just shared my experiences, and was very naive about the way this community works when it feels threatened.
It was a learning experience.

Originally Posted by shadi11

This is my biggest fear in my snakes.. I already had the dragons effected. Knowing there is still IBD I am very choosy of who I get my snakes from.
We have worked about getting the word out about the adeno and the inbreeding issues. And it may take the day that a big breeder steps up because its effected them badly like with IBD and I feel its sad it would have to go to that point knowing what other breeders have gone thru. Even though they arent large breeders its still devistating.

Unfortunately, Laura, I think the large breeders would rather try their hardest to convince anyone who'll listen that it doesn't matter, it's no big deal...then turn around and do the same about inbreeding. All the morphs started somehow...isn't that what some keep saying? Well, I'm sorry. But what's in those pictures isn't a morph...it's a mutation...a freak of nature...and the thought that someone is going to capitalize on that is sickening.

I wonder how many corkscrew tails and crooked backs this one will produce?

Originally Posted by Saladragon

Unfortunately, Laura, I think the large breeders would rather try their hardest to convince anyone who'll listen that it doesn't matter, it's no big deal...then turn around and do the same about inbreeding. All the morphs started somehow...isn't that what some keep saying? Well, I'm sorry. But what's in those pictures isn't a morph...it's a mutation...a freak of nature...and the thought that someone is going to capitalize on that is sickening.

I wonder how many corkscrew tails and crooked backs this one will produce?

Its also not completely true that all of the color phases are the result of inbreeding. Lizards adapt to their environment, in the wild, lizards who live in areas with specific soil colors will blend to their environment. Where I live there is a horned toad that lives in an area with a high clay and iron content in the soil and the soil is very red, the horned toads have adapted and are orange. Catch two of them and breed them and you get orange babies. Its simple species adaption to their environment. Travel 5 miles from the area where the orange horned toads exist and they are once again normal colored.
I point this out because there is a big difference between selective breeding to continue certain natural morphs, and inbreeding to exploit a genetic abnormality.

Originally Posted by Denisebme

Its also not completely true that all of the color phases are the result of inbreeding. Lizards adapt to their environment, in the wild, lizards who live in areas with specific soil colors will blend to their environment. Where I live there is a horned toad that lives in an area with a high clay and iron content in the soil and the soil is very red, the horned toads have adapted and are orange. Catch two of them and breed them and you get orange babies. Its simple species adaption to their environment. Travel 5 miles from the area where the orange horned toads exist and they are once again normal colored.
I point this out because there is a big difference between selective breeding to continue certain natural morphs, and inbreeding to exploit a genetic abnormality.

Also, on the Inbreeding note.

While some are 100% against inbreeding, it is not Uncommon in the wild that siblings or offspring and the parent to have a pairing.

Linebreeding can be done correctly, and incorrectly. it is not something one plays with and continues to do. It can be an easy way to prove or disprove a certain trait, but after one or even two lines in, those animals should never be inbred again to those of the same line. Outcrossing animals is NOT hard. Sure it takes longer to prove a trait this way, but at least then you are Broadening the genetic diversity of those animals.

Take a look at some lines of albino animals. Youll see what i mean. There is Correct Linebreeding, and Incorrect Surrounding this entire hobby. All it takes is a little patience. But of course, those dollar signs are far more interesting to look at, when a quick sale is in ones mind.

Originally Posted by Mooing Tricycle

Also, on the Inbreeding note.

While some are 100% against inbreeding, it is not Uncommon in the wild that siblings or offspring and the parent to have a pairing.

Linebreeding can be done correctly, and incorrectly. it is not something one plays with and continues to do. It can be an easy way to prove or disprove a certain trait, but after one or even two lines in, those animals should never be inbred again to those of the same line. Outcrossing animals is NOT hard. Sure it takes longer to prove a trait this way, but at least then you are Broadening the genetic diversity of those animals.

Take a look at some lines of albino animals. Youll see what i mean. There is Correct Linebreeding, and Incorrect Surrounding this entire hobby. All it takes is a little patience. But of course, those dollar signs are far more interesting to look at, when a quick sale is in ones mind.

Alicia, I could absolutely HUG you for that post.

It has been said to me a few times now that this is a natural occurence in the wild and while that may be so, these pitiful dragons aren't in the wild, so that arguement, in my book, is moot.
They are being put in a small enclosure and basically forced to mate. This is wrong.
I've been writing some different agencies about this and hopefully this can be stopped. I realize that the U.S. don't really have alot of regulations when it comes to reptiles, especially the care and ethical threatment of them but there may be something. Too bad we weren't more like Austria. In Austria - you, your animals and their enclosures are inspected yearly. If something isn't right, you are fined and then if still not fixed, the bearded dragon is removed from your care. I can't see a place like that allowing something like this.

It is alot easier to ignore the problem. I agree.. And thats what they are doing. Its not an issue.. All dragons have it. we have heard it all. I do not believe it is in all dragons. but I do believe that it will be if its not stopped. Then what? No more captive dragons because of ignorance? It is horrible what they have done to those who stand up for the testing of dragons. I have seen it and been thru it myself.
When right now we could be very selective and breed the negatives and try to fix this somehow. What shold matter doesnt.
And with people being convinced its ok its going to continue to be worse.
The breeding of the smoothie I think is wrong. As stated before. to maintain something with special needs for the thrill factor it has, no matter what harm it brings on the dragons.. So very sad.