is usark over stepping its rights by proposing rules for states without asking us

Originally Posted by Taking Up Serpents

With hots they need locking/latching enclosures, species names and venomous reptile on containers/enclosures and a bite protocol with species name and anti-venom in case EMS finds you face down on your reptile room floor.

In case that was read wrong I meant anti-venom on the list and protocol sheet. It is not required to physically have and store actual anti-venom. It violates controlled substance laws to have serum anyway.
Just thought I should clarify.

Originally Posted by Wolfy-hound

You're still all over the place.

You break the rules, you get infractions until you get a ban. Simple.

The site doesn't give a 'good guy' certification. The members who post good guy points give any given person a good guy certification.

The truth is, you don't want to hear the truth and reality. The laws in Florida prohibiting the "big five" are WHY we need regulations like USARK proposed. We'd still be able to have responsible keepers if regulations were proposed before all the knee jerk laws were thrown up. No one expected sudden legislation, and yes, it was sudden.

There's regulation on almost every type of animal kept in the US. There's regulations about dogs and cats, to believe that exotics just should be swept under the rug and ignored isn't plausible any more.

yes they do give out good guy certifications and the first thing yo have to do to get one is become a contributing member of fauna ie give them money. look into it if you dont believe me. but my pkoint was i suggested self regulation and was told i was out of line to even suggest it. now im being told im out of line for suggesting usark shouldnt write legislation to be enforced but the state. its ridiculous.

No one said that you were "out of line" when you suggested self regulation. In a perfect world, I think that is obviously what the majority of us would prefer...however, when that suggestion simply isn't working (and the "power that be" are pushing for bans), we simply have to come up with an alternative to be able to keep our animals at all.

As far as you being out of line when saying that USARK shouldn't be writing legislation - well, what do YOU suggest? Who do YOU think should be working so hard for us? If you think you can do a better job of it, by all means feel free to go out there and TRY to do a fraction of what they are doing. See how far you get. But I warn you - running up the state government steps and stomping your feet and telling them all that we can self-regulate so just leave us alone isn't gonna do anything except get you laughed at and probably the boot.

Seriously Rodney...I don't see what it is that you simply don't get about keeping your animals with a few restrictions or not keeping them at all. If you really feel that strongly about USARK not doing what you believe to be right, then stop complaining about it on an internet forum...go actually DO something about it.

Originally Posted by rodneynboalich

yes they do give out good guy certifications and the first thing yo have to do to get one is become a contributing member of fauna ie give them money. look into it if you dont believe me. but my pkoint was i suggested self regulation and was told i was out of line to even suggest it. now im being told im out of line for suggesting usark shouldnt write legislation to be enforced but the state. its ridiculous.

Yes, the GGC does have a basic requirement of paid membership...simply because it is a manual process that takes time and effort to complete.
As for the other requirements: the candidate has to have a website on which to post the certificate, and must have a positive trader rating.
Getting the certificate is not a guarantee of keeping it...paid membership must be continued, the website must be maintained, THE TRADER RATING CANNOT GO NEGATIVE, and THE GGC POLL MUST INDICATE A POSITIVE SCORE. One bad transaction is enough to kill somebody's GGC poll, if the situation is handled poorly; so, if the certificate holder wants to maintain "Good Guy" status, there is incentive to do good business.

I'd love to hear some viable alternatives. If it were as easy as self-regulation, we wouldn't be in this situation, would we?

Getting people to say they'll do something is one thing. Getting them to actually get up off their apathetic duffs to *do* it is another.

USARK may not be perfect, but they give us a voice on Capitol hill that otherwise wouldn't be heard. They give us the focal points we desperately need to get our group together.

My .02, a few regulations don't bother me a bit. Especially when it's things any responsible herpetoculturist should be doing in the first place. We can adapt, or the extremist groups can snuff us out state by state.

Originally Posted by Taking Up Serpents

I'm going to get this out here and no need to post it in the other thread as rodney is reading this as well.
USARK has their model legislation based off of the NC law.
There is NO chipping, permits, licenses, inspections, fees, registrations, ot tags for "certain reptiles" as the bill says. "Certain reptiles' can also be seen in the same light as Florida's reptiles of concern. Okay?
Now, there are caging and transport container standards for-
crocs (as far as I know caimen are not affected)
venomous
big 5 constrictors: retics, burms, african rocks, anacondas, scrub pythons (don't ask me why they get lumped in, I can't think of anyone I know that keeps them)
With hots they need locking/latching enclosures, species names and venomous reptile on containers/enclosures and a bite protocol with species name and anti-venom in case EMS finds you face down on your reptile room floor. You can print out these from some hot keeping websites.
Crocs and big constrictors should have locking/latching enclosures and the name of species on containers or enclosures. This makes sense, I don't want to see burm in tanks with bricks or books holding down the top. Never a good thing.
Escape notifications on everything should you have something make it out of the house. Also, even if you are bitten by your venomous, as long as it is found you complied with caging standards and bite protocols, you'll get it back should you recover.
If you do not stick to these simple and realistic standards you will be charged with a misdemeanor and animals may be confiscated that you violated the law with.
No inspections means that if there is no incident to give law enforcement reason to search, no one is even going to know you have it unless you tell 'em.
There is also a part about using a 'certain reptile' to harass, intimidate or threaten someone. Misdemeanor.
This it in full text
http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/Sessions...PDF/S307v4.pdf

As far as Ohio; what put Ohio in the crosshairs of animal rights groups is that there was little to no regulation statewide while many other states do have regulations. USDA only overseees big cats, bears and such if the owner is a breeder or exhibition (private zoos, sanctuaries that give tours). Thompson did not breed or exhibit his animals. Therefore not one agency inspected his conditions. Other members of the big cat community did reach out to him to take some of his animals months prior. Signs some people knew something was up with him. He had also just got out of prison for weapons charges. It is said during this time his animals were not cared for properly in his absence.
So no laws at all in Ohio over private ownership is what really got HSUS attention and made them prime target. They were looking at this prior to Sam Mazzola's odd death. The 90 day Strickland ban was their extortion of the agricultural community to throw the exotics folks under the bus. HSUS wanted a permanent ban but Strickland had to make it executive order as he was going out and Kasich coming in. Kasich let the ban expire. Really urinating all over vegan breakfast cereal. Do they eat cornflakes? I dunno. What's for sure is it really stirred the hive.
Wether Thompson killed himself as reports claim or if he was killed as some say; irrelevant. The fact that Ohio had no regulation made them a target and if he was killed; that made him a target as well. Still with me?
Either way you cut it, the lack of regulation in Ohio is what attracted the animal rights groups to that state. In a way, it really shows how a good offense will be our best defense against the bombardment of bills and bans. If Ohio keepers of the big exotics had taken those 90 days to put a proactive plan into the rulemaking process and been by keeper for keeper then HSUS would never have had the input and pull they had over the proposed Ohio ban in current form.
We have to learn from moments like these and work together if we are to survive.
I don't like it any more than anyone else. No herpers wanted to get political. 10 years ago it was far from my mind that I would ever have to get into this mess. But hindsight is 20/20 and here we are. Until someone comes up with a better plan I'm with the ARK.

your right and wrong. Thompson DID have a USDA. He got it LATE in his years of keeping, because every year he bought more at the animal auction, which is USDA and the paper trail made USDA interested withthe number of animals and the sex ratios.

Your right with the fact, that if we (keepers) do NOT hel with some kind of guidline and throw out the attitude of "i'm NOT budging" then your going to LOSE everything, period. end of story.

Everything I read insinuates he had no USDA license and was not APHIS inspected or thta he fell under their jurisdiction.

"Thompson's wife, Marian, said in federal court in 2009 that the animals were not for sale, according to a transcript of her testimony.

"We don't have a USDA license. We don't want to sell our animals. We don't want them on display," she said.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...hio/50821092/1

"The U.S. Department of Agriculture also received two complaints about the farm in 2008 and 2009, involving such things as pens that may have been unsafe, animals that were too skinny and dead animals on the property, said Dave Sacks, a USDA spokesman. But the agency decided it had no authority to act.

Federal officials said the government had no jurisdiction over the farm under either the Animal Welfare Act or the Endangered Species Act since the animals were held as private property and were not exhibited or being used for other commercial purposes."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/1...n_1023710.html

From conversations with other keepers of big cats they say this is true. If he had a USDA license I couldn't tell you when it expired. But that's in a nutshell how I came to that conclusion.
Good luck up there Mr Pitt. I'm a nobody in the community in general and far from wealthy, but I'll do what's asked to help another keeper.

Originally Posted by Taking Up Serpents

I'm going to get this out here and no need to post it in the other thread as rodney is reading this as well.
USARK has their model legislation based off of the NC law.
There is NO chipping, permits, licenses, inspections, fees, registrations, ot tags for "certain reptiles" as the bill says. "Certain reptiles' can also be seen in the same light as Florida's reptiles of concern. Okay?
Now, there are caging and transport container standards for-
crocs (as far as I know caimen are not affected)
venomous
big 5 constrictors: retics, burms, african rocks, anacondas, scrub pythons (don't ask me why they get lumped in, I can't think of anyone I know that keeps them)
With hots they need locking/latching enclosures, species names and venomous reptile on containers/enclosures and a bite protocol with species name and anti-venom in case EMS finds you face down on your reptile room floor. You can print out these from some hot keeping websites.
Crocs and big constrictors should have locking/latching enclosures and the name of species on containers or enclosures. This makes sense, I don't want to see burm in tanks with bricks or books holding down the top. Never a good thing.
Escape notifications on everything should you have something make it out of the house. Also, even if you are bitten by your venomous, as long as it is found you complied with caging standards and bite protocols, you'll get it back should you recover.
If you do not stick to these simple and realistic standards you will be charged with a misdemeanor and animals may be confiscated that you violated the law with.
No inspections means that if there is no incident to give law enforcement reason to search, no one is even going to know you have it unless you tell 'em.
There is also a part about using a 'certain reptile' to harass, intimidate or threaten someone. Misdemeanor.
This it in full text
http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/Sessions...PDF/S307v4.pdf

As far as Ohio; what put Ohio in the crosshairs of animal rights groups is that there was little to no regulation statewide while many other states do have regulations. USDA only overseees big cats, bears and such if the owner is a breeder or exhibition (private zoos, sanctuaries that give tours). Thompson did not breed or exhibit his animals. Therefore not one agency inspected his conditions. Other members of the big cat community did reach out to him to take some of his animals months prior. Signs some people knew something was up with him. He had also just got out of prison for weapons charges. It is said during this time his animals were not cared for properly in his absence.
So no laws at all in Ohio over private ownership is what really got HSUS attention and made them prime target. They were looking at this prior to Sam Mazzola's odd death. The 90 day Strickland ban was their extortion of the agricultural community to throw the exotics folks under the bus. HSUS wanted a permanent ban but Strickland had to make it executive order as he was going out and Kasich coming in. Kasich let the ban expire. Really urinating all over vegan breakfast cereal. Do they eat cornflakes? I dunno. What's for sure is it really stirred the hive.
Wether Thompson killed himself as reports claim or if he was killed as some say; irrelevant. The fact that Ohio had no regulation made them a target and if he was killed; that made him a target as well. Still with me?
Either way you cut it, the lack of regulation in Ohio is what attracted the animal rights groups to that state. In a way, it really shows how a good offense will be our best defense against the bombardment of bills and bans. If Ohio keepers of the big exotics had taken those 90 days to put a proactive plan into the rulemaking process and been by keeper for keeper then HSUS would never have had the input and pull they had over the proposed Ohio ban in current form.
We have to learn from moments like these and work together if we are to survive.
I don't like it any more than anyone else. No herpers wanted to get political. 10 years ago it was far from my mind that I would ever have to get into this mess. But hindsight is 20/20 and here we are. Until someone comes up with a better plan I'm with the ARK.

What is the need of more regulation in Ohio? The real problem in our everyday lives is too much governement regulation.

There is no problem with large constrictors in Ohio. Constrictors are not killing, harming or causing the public to be in danger. The mere fact that you would be so quick to regulate large constrictors just because you don't own them and your friends don't either is bothersome.

Lets compare the publics safety with large constrictors in Ohio or for that matter all exotic animals in Ohio with other "dangers" that exist in everyday life.

More people have drownded in bath tubs, been electrocuted, injured in sports, hell even injured or killed by golf balls in Ohio than by all the unregulated exotics combined. Do you see golfers trying to make golfers were helmets? Why not propose that?

I don't keep large constrictors or venomous snakes but I have a problem with the state telling me I can't or that I need a "permit" so the state can send their flunky who knows nothing about these animals tell me whether my cage is large enough, or I am feeding caring for it properly.

Originally Posted by mbm6

What is the need of more regulation in Ohio? The real problem in our everyday lives is too much governement regulation.

There is no problem with large constrictors in Ohio. Constrictors are not killing, harming or causing the public to be in danger. The mere fact that you would be so quick to regulate large constrictors just because you don't own them and your friends don't either is bothersome.

Lets compare the publics safety with large constrictors in Ohio or for that matter all exotic animals in Ohio with other "dangers" that exist in everyday life.

More people have drownded in bath tubs, been electrocuted, injured in sports, hell even injured or killed by golf balls in Ohio than by all the unregulated exotics combined. Do you see golfers trying to make golfers were helmets? Why not propose that?

I don't keep large constrictors or venomous snakes but I have a problem with the state telling me I can't or that I need a "permit" so the state can send their flunky who knows nothing about these animals tell me whether my cage is large enough, or I am feeding caring for it properly.

The reason why HSUS, and the Ohio Legislature are pursuing this, is because there are little, to no regulations, in place. I think to be more accurate you should compare keeping exotics to keeping other animals, or pets. Each state has a minimum amount of things that must be done in order to keep dogs and cats, horses, or raptors. Most of those regulations involve having proper housing, vaccinations, and keeping the animal protected.

I personally like the Falconers model, and feel it can be adapted to suit our needs. I'm not saying you should have a two year apprenticship to own and breed constrictors as in falconry. But having someone who is expierienced with large snakes can "sponsor" you. Someone that can answer your questions and provide assistence when needed. In falconry, it's not some "flunky" that inspects your caging. It's someone in the falconry community. The permits are free in most states as well.

That's my idea. If people like USARK, who are lobbying for the correct legislation, are not supported, the HSUS/PETA lobbying machine will get it's legislation passed, and then it will not matter anymore, because none of will be allowed to keep anything.

Ok let's all be adults and Americans here.

A leader can be questioned and should be questioned if a person he is leading has a question. That is the beauty of our great country.

There is a few things I do not like. And I am seeing it in this very thread and I now I have seen Andrew do it.

1) People are going off on a guy because he has questioned Andrew and USARK because he does not agree with something Andrew/USARK is doing. Well if I pay for someone to represent me and I do not like something I will bring it up. IT IS MY RIGHT.

2) Andrew not liking the fact he is being questioned. As a leader of USARK you will be questioned. No matter the question it is your actions in giving the answer that will define you as a leader.

3) No matter what you have done for states in the past it is what you are doing now. So if a person does not like something and brings it up to you, you should do your best to answer them questions. To have a large group of people corner a person with simple questions will prevent others from standing up with their own questions.

I like some of the things USARK stands for. That does not mean that everything USARK does is gold. Andrew is human and will make mistakes.

I think USARK needs to be rebuilt as it is larger now then it was when he fought for NC.....

I think he should look for state side presidents. then them presidents have their own funds to fight state wide issues and Andrew helps states as needed. It would show strength in USARK.

See USARK needs to grow and it would make it easier to fight these things. Think about it. If USARK had a state president and a board. Then smaller chapters in and through out the state it would be organized. When needed the USARK President and Board could travel to said state and everything they need to fight a ban or whatever would then be organized.

USARK got big and now there is no one to work it. The work load is spread thin.

See if a system like I am talking about was put in place then the voice of the people could be heard and would be heard.

As the people are who matter am I not correct?

We are so use to going with the lesser of the two evils. THAT IS NOT THE WAY. THAT IS GIVING IN!!!! THIS COUNTRY IS IN THE STATE IT IS IN FROM GOING WITH THE LESSER OF THE TWO EVILS!

I sent Andrew an email a few weeks back telling him I was sorry for somethings I thought about him.

That does not mean he is above being questioned. His actions and USARKS actions to being questioned is what I am more worried about.

I am seeing a person question a few things. Instead of taking these questions and answering them and helping the person understand. I see a group of people corner him. When a person is cornered their actions will change.

My point is when a person is above questioning it starts leaning towards something we do not like. And when a person has a group of people that says they are above questioning it is even worse.

USARK needs to be rebuilt into a stronger unit.

For the first time I will offer myself to the state of WI as that is where I live now. I think things should also be on a vote level from the state only for each position. I also think that just because you can not afford to become a paid member of USARK does not mean you can not become a member. Some families may have had a few animals before they lost their jobs or what not. They maybe fighitng to feed their families but that does not mean that they can not help us with ideas and fighting. I know money makes the world go round.... But team work gets the job done.

SO STOP THIS FRICKIN FIGHTING>.... CAUSE AS YOU ALL FIGHT AND NOT ANSWER SIMPLE QUESTIONS...... OR START THREADS TO COMPLAIN ABOUT NOT GETTING QUESTIONS ANSWERED...... YOUR HOBBY IS DIEING......... STOP...... IF YOU ARE NOT HELPING YOU ARE DESTROYING.

I fought so much for ohio.... I see so many say stupid things......

When are we all going to just stop and form that one team....

When is it going to be if a person has a simple question people help them understand the answer....

When is it going to be that we as the reptile community...... Learn from the past.....

Yeah I am a bit upset.... But as you see I did not name call.... was not mean....

THERE IS NOT ONE PERSON ABOVE QUESTIONING....

So lets get going in the right direction...

Andrew if you are interested......... Email me or contact me... I have a few ideas.... Or anyone that wants to hear what I am thinking. We need a stronger structure....