San Diego Vivarium and IBD

I talked with Dale at lenght about this last week and I will say that he was upset about all this but he knew what he had to do,He went on to tell me that HE WILL NOT SELL ANYMORE SNAKES .I know that will set him back years and was one of the hardest decesion he will ever make but it was the right one to make.He told me of a Tiger Boa that Cagle sold and that it is very likely a carrier, It saddens me to think that one person is so very selfish that he would knowingly sell a infected snake. That alone tells me alot about Cagle and I can only hope that everyone else can see that he is not a person not to do any deals with no matter how good it  sounds.I am not usually a person to get to involved in something that has nothing to do with me but there comes a time when I can no longer keep my opinions to myself and this is a subject that so bad (on Cagles part)that I have to say something.I have spoke to a well known vet at the university of Florida and according to him I.B.D. can be spead in several ways body (fluids,droppings ect.....)I was told that if a person was to spill and infected snakes water on his clothes and then handled a non-infected snake the chances are very high that they just infected the second snake,So the fact that Cagle is still selling snakes (no matter if they were kept in a different room or building) he is taking a chance on infecting everyones collection that buys from him.That is my rant and my opinions.agree with me or not those are the facts.

Hey Dave....This might be HARD to believe, but....I AGREE WITH YOU!! (It's alright, I can't believe I said it, myself&#33<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''> <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''> ....Neil

Lets Examine Something:

In Dave Lawsons post, he stated that:
, "It saddens me to think that one person is so very selfish that he would knowingly sell a infected snake. That alone tells me alot about Cagle and I can only hope that everyone else can see that he is not a person not to do any deals with no matter how good it &nbsp;sounds."

So, despite public backlash
And admist oppostion by people
in this hobby/business

BILL CAGLE continues, to:

a) &nbsp;Sell snakes on line on Kingsnake.com

b) &nbsp;Post no disclaimer in any of his ads, warning
&nbsp; &nbsp; prospective customers that his collection MAY
&nbsp; &nbsp; have been exposed to the IBD virus.

c) &nbsp;Talk about continueing court proceedings despite
&nbsp; &nbsp; not safeguarding the public from a threat, whether
&nbsp; &nbsp; that threat is perceived or real.


Now for the "real" treat, people who BOUGHT from Cagle, frigthened by the prospect of loseing all the money they have inverted in their snakes, are now selling them online, "offloading" them if you will. Now, we all know people switch gears, buy something only to turn around and sell it, and buy something else. But, in light of what has transpired, I find it ironic that people would KNOWINGLY send boas bought from Bill Cagle into the market, with no care as to the potential of the damage they could cause by doing so, so long as they "Make their money back"

How do we stop this?
Well, for starters Bill Cagle would have to stop selling snakes.
Then people that bought from him would have to ethically think about their actions and hold on to them even though they could lose them, which stinks and isnt their fault.
In addition,I think thay we as breeders and buyers, both, should critically study WHO we buy boas from. I know of a number of people that bring animals in one week, and 8 weeks later that same animal is out the door, traded for yet another animal that has a 9 week stay at their"Snake hotel"
I am not saying that my word should control or even influence what people do with their animals, that is really up to them. But it is PRECISELY this movement of animals, with little or no quarantine, and a a short stay, that promotes epidemics such as the one we are witnessing.
Almost all my snakes came from closed collections, not from brokers, and not from people that constantly move things in and out. Those that DID come from people who exhibit those habits , they are CONSTANTLY scrutinized by me, Daily.
Buying new snakes? Be serious. You would have to know the breeder, where they REALY got their snakes from, and what kind of movement pattern they have of snakes in their collection.


I also think that a differentiation needs to be made between Dale Picolla from San Diego Vivarium & &nbsp; Bill Cagle.
granted, they are BOTH brokers, and you know how I feel about most brokers. But Dale Picolla has CHOSEN to publicly ADMIT to haveing the virus present in his collection, posted a dsclaimer warning &nbsp;potential customers of the potential, however great or small, for cross infection, and finally rescinded and STOPPED SELLING BOAS for the time being.
Bill &nbsp;Cagle on the other hand has blamed Mr.Picolla for selling him snakes with IBD virus in them, threatened to take Dale to court, never posted ANY disclaimer which would educate the buying public that they may be potentially purchaseing a snake that MAY have or have been exposed to IBD and CONTINUES to advertise his snakes on kingsnake.com, sell them to unsuspecting/uninformed customers.

I see a marked diffrence in business ethics at this point.
As diffrent as day is to night.
I am not saying that there is no culpability here.
But, if we you to move forward from today, do the right thing
correct any errors you may have made, why should you be lumped with those that make noe effort whatsoever aside from argueing on this BOI, or haveing otherr people do so on your behalf. All that is lip service, the proof is in the current pro-active attitude of ANY person involved.

I am sorry for this long post, but there is no way to condensce this into a smaller package. And additonally, I have seen post concerning Pet Kingdom, about it being a good store. Sorry guys, but it is in the same sad state as many other reptile stores, and as a local S.D. rsident for the better part of 20 years,I can say &nbsp;I wouldnt buy anything from them. Just a heads up and some truth &nbsp;for once.

&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Sincerely,

&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Fred Albury
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;(Aztec Reptiles)

I JUST WANT TO COMMENT ON THE GUYANA BOA THAT WAS SOLD TO THE INDIVIVDUAL ABC HERPS WAS POSTING ABOUT. I FINALLY FIGURED OUT WHO THE INDIVIDUAL IS THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT. IF HE WANTS TO COME FORWARD THAT IS HIS CHOICE. ANYWAY I SOLD A PAIR OF BOAS TO THIS INDIVIDUAL. A FEW WEEKS LATER HE SAID HE HE SPOTTED SOME MITES IN HIS COLLECTION. HE ASKED ME ABOUT USING
NO PEST STRIP TO GET RID OF THEM.I HAVE HAD GOOD RESULTS FROM THE STRIP.I HAVE HAD GOOD AN BAD RESULTS FROM OTHER PRODUCTS OUT THERE THAT
KILL MITES.ONE OF THE PRODUCTS I HAVE USED HAS BEEN
SUCESSFULL IN COMBATTING MITES. IT HAS ALSO MADE A DWARF RETIC OF MINE DO BACKFLIPS WHICH APPEARED TO BE A NUEROLOGICAL PROBLEM. AFTER A WEEK OF ADMINTERING FLUIDS, THE ANIMAL RETURNED TO NORMAL.
WHILE I HAVE HAD GOOD RESULTS FROM THE STRIP, I HAVE KNOWN OTHERS WHO HAVENT. DEPENDING ON EXPOSURE TIME,
SIGNS OF GAPING MOUTHS, TO SNAKES ARCHING THERE NECKS AND HEAD BACKWORDS,WHICH IS A TOXIC REACTION
ASSOCIATED WITH EXPOSURE TO THE POISON. NORMALLY
HYDRATING THE ANIMAL FOR A PERIOD WILL RETURN THE ANIMAL TO NORMAL FUNCTION.WELL THIS PERSON USED THE STRIP, AND THEN AFTER THE EXPOSURE REPORTED THE ANIMAL TWISTING IN AN UNORTHODOX MANNER.


ABC I KNOW WHO THIS INDIVIDUAL IS, AND I WOULD CONSIDER HIM A REPUTABLE INDIVIDUAL. I IN FACT HAD A CONVERSATION WITH HIM LAST NIGHT. IF HE WANTS TO COME FORWARD AND DISCUSS THIS, I WELCOME IT. BUT WE NEED TO GET THE FACTS STRAIGHT FIRST, AND ACCORDING TO YOUR POST, THERE WAS NEVER A MENTION OF THE METHOD USED IN THE TREATMENT OF THE MITES. HE ALSO
DIDNT MENTION THAT THE CONDITION CLEARED UP AFTER I TOLD HIM WHAT TO DO, WHICH WAS HYDRATE WITH PEDIALITE FOR PERIOD OF TIME.

I HAVE STOPPED SELLING BOAS TO THE PUBLIC.EVEN THOUGH I HAVE OVER FORTY ANIMALS THAT WERENT EXPOSED TO THE ANIMAL THAT ARE IN QUESTION, I WOULD THOUGH HAVE TO AGREE WITH FACTS POSTED ABOUT TRANSMISSION
EVEN IF YOU HAVE ANIMAL IN ANOTHER FACILITY.
MR. CAGLE BY THIS TIME CANNOT CLAIM IGNORANCE HERE.
THIS IS A CONSCIOUS DECISSION HE HAS MADE TO SELL
POSSIBLY INFECTED ANIMALS TO THE PRIVATE SECTOR.
WE KNOW OF ONE ANIMAL THAT HE CLAIMS TO HAVE SOLD THAT WAS EXPOSED TO AN ANIMAL THAT DIED OF IBD.
IT DOESNT GET ANY CLEARER THEN THAT.SO ANY OF YOU CAGLE BANDWAGONERS OUT THERE WHO CONTINUE TO CLAIM
BILL AS THE INNOCENT VICTIM HERE,SHOULD STEP BACK AND CHECK YOURSELF.THIS IS BLATANT, IT COULD TURN OUT TO BE A SOMETHING THAT COULD HAUNT THE BOA COMMUNITY
FOR A LONG LONG TIME. DO THE RIGHT THING CAGLE,AND THE OTHER PARTIES INVOLVED, AND YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE.
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; SINCERELY &nbsp; D.PICOLLA

We have talked with Bill Bennett, owner of Pet Kingdom, in regards to the statements made by Mr. Picola. Mr. Picola stated that Kenny Mosher, reptile manager at Pet Kingdom, knowingly sold some IBD infected Trinidad boas. Mr. Bennett said that not only was this statement untrue, but that they have never even posessed any Trinidad boas since they have been in business. I found the statement about Kenny Mosher "knowingly selling IBD infected boas" very strange. Not only because it just sounded untrue, but because there are so few Trinidad boas in the country. Dale, you could have at least picked a better locality to lie about. Mr. Bennett said Dale Picola is a pathelogical liar. If you would like to give him a call, he said he would be glad to tell the facts. Here's the number to Pet Kingdom: 619-224-2841.

We have also spoken with the other pet store owner, Mr. Christopher Rowan, where Dale said in his previous e-mail that he was going to pay Mr. Rowan back money he owed him for the dead snakes. Christopher Rowan has never received any money and he also said that Dale has not even called him. Here is Mr. Rowan's number if anyone would like to call and verify: 858-503-0037.

We also spoke to Matt Hunter, another customer that purchased an IBD infected animal from Dale Picola. Dale also told him that he would promptly return his money, but Matt has also never received his money back. Here's Matt's number if anyone would like to call and verify this as well: 407-493-7464.

We have also spoken with Mr. Dwight Cameron. He is another customer that had 3 boas die that he had purchased from Mr. Dale Picola. Mr. Picola stated above that Dwight Cameron had no proof of the dead boas. Mr. Cameron says Dale Picola is a bold face liar. He said that he has all 3 animals in the freezer and he offered to send them back to Dale. But Dale said, "No need, I trust you." If anyone would like to call Dwight to verify, please do, here's his number as well: 727-942-0373.

I have no need to defend myself against Dale Picola. He has proven himself again and again with bad dealings, and there will probably be more. I have no need for a disclaimer in any way. The five animals I purchased from Dale were quarantined from day one and were never in contact with ANY of my breeders or any of the animals I have for sale.

I have been keeping and breeding boas for over 22 years and there is no way I would let some idiot like Dale Picola, infect my prize collection. I have dedicated part of my life to these animals and they are almost like part of my family.

I started not to post this last paragraph, but I just can't help myself. To the individuals that continue to attack me, trying to tell me what I should or shouldn't do, get a life and start doing what you're supposed to do. You should start by getting a job, so you won't have so much time on your hands. It is obvious to the general public who you are, by your repeated ignorant posts. If you guys spent half the time concentrating on boas as you did trying to bash Bill Cagle, you might sell a few boas every now and then. I, myself, will continue to work as hard as possible to supply the best spam_True Redtail boas in the business. I will also continue to sell lots of boas each and every week. My reputation speaks for itself.

PS. I received a very gratifying phone call last night from a very good customer in Santa Monica, CA. This customer happens to be an attorney and he has bought several boas from me. Dale, you know who I'm talking about, so you better think before you say another word. The hole is deep already, I sure would hate to see the dirt cave in on you.

"DIDNT STOP SELLING"

That can be the epitome on your tombstone Bill Cagle.
You prove it more EVERY day that you CONTINUE to sell boas,
WITHOUT a DISCLAIMER, admist all the controversy.

Dale stopped selling. That means, no matter what is, could be, or never was in his collection, it is not being circulated throughout collections in the U.S.A.

You continue to sell. POTENTIALLY infecting collections, and with complete wanton disregard for the well being of the very same "hobby" that you esppuse to love so much and you have been part of for so many years.

I think it is obvious to all that are here reading this diatribe, that what has happend is unfortunate and could happen to any one of us, especially those that do not practice true quarantine procedures or those that broker reptiles. The FACT that it HAS happened is no longer really the issue. What IS the issue is the spread of the virus, and PRECAUTIONS, taken to prevent it, whether unwaranted or warranted. We cant make it go away, but we can reduce the likelyhood that it will be spread on a PERSONAL level. Obviously, not everybody see things this way. Only problem is that we AL pay for their lack of clarity in this matter. I think that Bill Cagles actions speak loud enough for all to see, he will continue to sell, people will continue to buy, and maybe nothing bad will come of it, then again, maybe more cases of IBD will arise because of his decesion to sell his boas throughout this country. Time will tell.

But ask yourself a question, this question:

"If you had an established collection, with no snakes in it from Mr.Cagle, would you knowingly purchase one from him and potentially risk loseing some if not all of them to I.B.D.?"


&nbsp;I think the answer is self explanatory for most here.


&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Sincerely,

&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Fred Albury

&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;(Aztec Reptiles)

ok Bill heres a thought ..
ok so dale may have sold IBD boas ... ok ya we all hate to hear that right ??yes &nbsp;But the question is DID he know this at the time of the sales ?? no one will ever know that &nbsp; just the hard truth . &nbsp;ok Now saying that you your self bought animals from him that were IBD poss am i right ?__? yep right again .ok now you made up with IBD poss animals by giving up new ones ... good job!Ok now follow me here &nbsp;this is where it gets confusing ..you had stated a few posts ago that selling snakes was a "HOBBY "to you and not a buis ? if im wrong im sorry ok so if its a hobby to you &nbsp;why such a big deal in holding off on sales for a while ?i mean with your Outstanding reputation in the industry im sure say in 3-6 months of holding off you could still pick up where you would have lft off and possibly even more so ?and being thats its not a JOB and justa hobby you said wouldnt be like you were losing anything right ?ok now for my last thoughts on all this . A disclaimer that you say you have no intentions of putting in your sales &nbsp;is not your problems as none of your snakes were around them right ? and your reputation is so pristiene(sp)then it wouldnt hurt ya a bit would it ... or would it <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'> i mean there are disclaimers on everything in todays world but people still buy those items &nbsp;not from fear of there disclaimer but from them wanting &nbsp;the item . IMHO you are acting like a person that slept with a HIV poss person .. so you wore a condom ! does that make you feel safer about the ordeal? i know it wouldnt me &nbsp;would you tell people you had done so ? or would you keep hush about that also like it never happend? .
oh and about your last post about people getting real JOBS .. LOL i have one MY own company &nbsp;and &nbsp;well lets just say i HAVE the time to do whatever i want whenever i want to so like you stated before you accuse and bash people KNOW THE FACTS!!!!

You are exactly right about one thing Fred. Bill Cagles actions and good reputation speak loud and clear. I am quite sure everyone can hear me and I'm sure they can also hear you. YOR REALLY SHOULD GET A JOB FRED AND STOP MILKING THE GOVERNMENT!

"YOR REALLY SHOULD GET A JOB FRED AND STOP MILKING THE GOVERNMENT!"

And this has what to do with IBD or the position you snake keepers find yourselves in?

Now you know how Bill feels about you as potential customers. This is the worth that he places on your collections. This is the limit to his concern.

Bill, Your words are speaking loud and clear to me as are your actions.

My .02

HEY FRED, I JUST READ YOUR MOST RECENT POST AGAIN AND I'M JUST CURIOUS....... HAVE YOU BEEN DRINKING OR ARE YOU REALLY THAT IGNORANT?