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10-20-2008, 11:51 PM
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#41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devenomized
A buyer interested in purchasing a venomoid, a hot, a tarantula, or a cockatoo needs to balance the risk and take full accountability. This same equation goes to the people selling, servicing, or providing assistance; they too have to balance the risk they take and they need to be accountable for their actions.
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So its kinda like picking up a prostitute, huh?
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10-21-2008, 02:46 AM
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#42
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Christian,
You've acknowledged that elapids can regenerate & become "hot" again...even when the surgery is performed by an experienced vet. Couple that with Dr Sabatini's refusal to guarantee that it is impossible for the snakes he has fixed to produce venom, and it's pretty much time to give that argument a rest.
All Gary is saying is that the fact that these snakes are not guaranteed to be rendered forever harmless should be addressed with prospective buyers. I doubt he would care if it is by posting a video, or including a statement in the paperwork (preferably one that must be acknowledged by the purchaser).
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10-21-2008, 07:35 AM
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#43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shrap
So its kinda like picking up a prostitute, huh?
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please provide an intelligent response. look at other people's reply and then read yours. don't make yourself sound less intelligent. Gary can give you some tips on debating skills.
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10-21-2008, 07:42 AM
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#44
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VENOMOIDS
I REALLY DONT THINK HE KNOWS WHAT HE MEANS SO DO US ALL A FAVOR AND STOP..
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10-21-2008, 07:43 AM
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#45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devenomized
please provide an intelligent response. look at other people's reply and then read yours. don't make yourself sound less intelligent. Gary can give you some tips on debating skills.
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It is called a joke. I was just trying to lighten things up a bit. So get over your high and mighty self, mmkay princess.
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10-21-2008, 07:54 AM
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#46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hhmoore
Christian,
You've acknowledged that elapids can regenerate & become "hot" again...even when the surgery is performed by an experienced vet. Couple that with Dr Sabatini's refusal to guarantee that it is impossible for the snakes he has fixed to produce venom, and it's pretty much time to give that argument a rest.
All Gary is saying is that the fact that these snakes are not guaranteed to be rendered forever harmless should be addressed with prospective buyers. I doubt he would care if it is by posting a video, or including a statement in the paperwork (preferably one that must be acknowledged by the purchaser).
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At least we are not presidential candidates or we'll have a lot more debating missing the facts. It's not about if I think reparative regrowth can happen on reptiles. It is a fact that venom duct's tissue can partially regrow only on Elapids according to Dr. Fry. That's a fact not a subjective statement unless Dr. is a storyteller which I highly doubt.
On the other hand, let's assume every snake devenomized by Dr. Sabatini including vipers which cannot regrow venom ducts to "reconnect" themselves start growing ducts like massive amounts of noddles inside their mouth. I don't know, let's say is some rare reparative regrowth response never seen in science, but the problem is one simple fact that your statement is missing from the beginning. If both venom glands are fully removed, Dr. Fry or any other expert would tell you, reparative regrowth on a missing organ is impossible. Then, what's your argument? Even if every snake devenomized by a licensed DVM has ducts coming out of their mouths and growing like weeds, they have no glands. I'm giving you plenty of assumption on venom ducts growing here
The only two facts you guys can rely on to continue making an argument are that DVMs just like Doctors could potentially fall asleep on the wheel and due to their malpractice cause a snake to continue producing venom and finally, the fact that Dr. Sabatini's "documentation" does not state that the animal you are buying will never inject venom or something along those lines.
I'm not the DVM and I'm not Venomoid, Inc, but I would like to know, when is it going to stop? You know the argument about "mistakes" doing medical procedures is always going to be consider a risk, correct? Ok, with that said, you know as well as the documentation provided by Venomoid, Inc clearly states the animal should be treated like a venomous snakes and the animal should be checked by a licensed vet yearly in case you don't know. Now, take your 1st argument about medical professionals potentially making a mistake and then top that with a document stating that the "buyer" should take care of their specimen like they would a hot snake and the buyer should check the animal yearly with a licensed DVM. Wouldn't you say that maybe those two arguments are more like a tatology? Maybe rather than coming to the forum to ask me questions, you should either contact Dr. Sabatini on the phone or better yet, come to Hamburg and speak to him directly. I'm giving you my opinion on your arguments and I can tell you he won't waste his time with the drama here in the forums. I like it on the other hand, and to be honest, the more we debate this, the more people will read about it and I'm happy with that.
I can debate this issue like a professional without insulting people or making ignorant statements and at the end of the day, I can respect and understand every opinion stated here. I don't have to agree, but I do understand.
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10-21-2008, 08:13 AM
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#47
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Now I personally feel that devenomizing an animal is nothing but senseless butchering. There is nothing advantageous being done for the animal by performing the procedure, barring the rare occasion that it may need to be done due to injury. Otherwise it is being done for no other reason than to make them more appealing to humans.
I also dont agree with bobbing tails or cropping ears on canines or any other animal. That is just another example of senseless butchering of animals for no other reason than to make them more appealing to humans.
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10-21-2008, 08:21 AM
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#48
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I've been staying out of these discussions for some time...and I'm not going to get mired in this one. You don't like Gary's arguments, and that is fine...but yours are no better (you continue to say the same things over and over, even while admitting that regeneration is possible). You say that that type of handling isn't done at shows, but it has been seen. Same old, same old.
You aren't going to change the minds of people that are against venomoids...any more than I could change the mind of somebody that is strongly in favor of them. As I've said before, I knew somebody that was nearly killed by a venomoid cobra...and he had documentation stating that the procedure was performed. (My understanding was that the surgery was performed by a vet. I'm not suggesting that it was Dr Sabatini - in fact, I'm fairly certain it was not).
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10-21-2008, 09:56 AM
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#49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shrap
Now I personally feel that devenomizing an animal is nothing but senseless butchering. There is nothing advantageous being done for the animal by performing the procedure, barring the rare occasion that it may need to be done due to injury. Otherwise it is being done for no other reason than to make them more appealing to humans.
I also dont agree with bobbing tails or cropping ears on canines or any other animal. That is just another example of senseless butchering of animals for no other reason than to make them more appealing to humans.
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Thank you for presenting your opinion. I can understand your point of view and I'm going to give you positive karma. I fully respect your prespective on venomoids as well as other "cosmetic" surgical procedures performed on animals.
Thanks again!
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10-21-2008, 10:18 AM
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#50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hhmoore
I've been staying out of these discussions for some time...and I'm not going to get mired in this one. You don't like Gary's arguments, and that is fine...but yours are no better (you continue to say the same things over and over, even while admitting that regeneration is possible). You say that that type of handling isn't done at shows, but it has been seen. Same old, same old.
You aren't going to change the minds of people that are against venomoids...any more than I could change the mind of somebody that is strongly in favor of them. As I've said before, I knew somebody that was nearly killed by a venomoid cobra...and he had documentation stating that the procedure was performed. (My understanding was that the surgery was performed by a vet. I'm not suggesting that it was Dr Sabatini - in fact, I'm fairly certain it was not).
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hhmoore,
I fully understand your opinion on venomoids and I agree that we'll disagree on multiple issues, but perhaps there might be a few that we find ourselves having a common understanding. The video posted on YouTube has incredible value for people like the person who posted above, Gary, and including myself. I think the video is a great educational tool for those against cruelty to animals, those who do not think venomoids are safe in general, those people who want to learn more about venomoids, and finally people who have venomoids or like venomoids. I think the video is something that we all agree serves a good purpose for multiple reasons, but the bottom line is that the video shows how unsafe the illegal practice of trying to surgically alter an animal really is.
A couple last points I would like to make in reference to your reply is that I will continue to handle small venomoids and perhaps our leucistic monocled cobra at hamburg show behind the table and aways from the reach of children or people. I will probably allow people to touch the snake's tail and as I hold any venomoid, I will clearly state why we are at the show, what the snake is, and why i'm able to hold it. If at any given time, the people running the show would like me or anyone holding a venomoid behind their tables like other people hold reptiles, to stop doing it, I will comply with the request. As far as holding a large gaboon, rattlesnake, or other large venomoid whose bite could inflict a painfull bite for myself, I would not do that. We have a beutiful pair of adult gabinos that have never tried to strike, but I wouldn't hold them because I don't want to get bitten by one of them not because they are going to inject venom.
Finally, the example of a venomoid cobra with documentation that injected venom, could you please provide some links to that incident with facts. I WILL include them with the video I plan to add on my website. Your point about the paperwork stating whatever is said and the fact the animal that obviously was not a venomoid, it's a horrible tragedy, a terrible mistake, and the business behind the sale of that animal should be liable in my opinion.
Let's remember that a venomoid is a venomous snake rendered non-venomous by a full adenectomy and a full ductectomy. A full adenectomy is NOT subject to reparative regrowth on any venomous snake; therefore, even though elapids could potentially regenerate venom duct tissue, if the full adenectomy was done, these specimens cannot produce and/or inject venom.
With that said, any venomous snake sold as a venomoid that is able to inject venom is not a venomoid, but rather a veterianrian malpractice at an attempt to do a full adenectomy that resulted in a venomous snake injecting and/or producing venom.
In conclusion, venomoids are snakes where NO mistake happens; however, if you read about my "risk management" post, every business as well as buyer holds a level of accountability and it is only my subjective opinion that buyers should mititigate any risk associated with a purchase of a venomoid from any licensed DVM and follow up some basic procedures to ensure their venomoids are checked only as a normal precaution.
I have checked venomoids produced by Venomoid, Inc by trying to milk them, study the attack behavior on live rats on multiple occassions, as well as sharing high quality photographs with other individuals who wanted to look at shots taken of a venomoids mouth.
I hope this gives you a little more information on my own subjective opinion and I know you are not going to agree with me or anything like that, but I hope I'm making myself more clear. If I have failed, all I can do is apologize for not being clear enough and you'll need to accept. If someone cannot accept, I suggest they read the serenity prayer for some guidance. (not religious of course)
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