WARNING - Susan Bacon (cvgeckoranch@yahoo.com)

This is a warning for anyone considering purchasing a gecko from: Susan Bacon (svgeckoranch@yahoo.com), Wes Bacon (wpbacon@yahoo.com), or W P Bacon. I have highlighted the emails in blue, hoping to make reading this easier. All communication with Susan was done through e-mail.
I responded to an ad on Kingsnake http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=31&de=688791 on 5-29, regarding the yellow dalmatian that was posted there. Susan responded and told me the shipping would be $50.00, but that someone else was intersted in purchasing all three geckos from the ad. I told her to let me know if the deal falls though.

__________________________________________________ _______________
From: W P Bacon

To: carrienkashe@comcast.net

Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 11:16 PM

Subject: Re: Message about: Young Cresteds - Yellow Super Dalmation



Hello.



Thanks for your interest. First, I have to apologize for a slight typo in the ad. The geckos are right about 5 grams, not 6-8. Shipping will be $50 by UPS.. Right now I have someone interested in buying all three and am waiting for a response back. I expect to here back tomorrow and will let you know if the dalmation is still available. If not, I do have others very similar that you might be interested in.



Susan




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From: "carrienkashe@comcast.net"
To: CVGeckoRanch@yahoo.com
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 7:21:49 AM
Subject: Message about: Young Cresteds - Yellow Super Dalmation

*************
NOTE: This message was sent to you via the Kingsnake.com Classifieds. If you feel this message is fraudulent or abusive please forward it to classifieds@pethobbyist.com.
NOTE: DO NOT flag this message as SPAM/JUNK as your ability to receive legitimate messages from Kingsnake.com Classifieds may be compromised
*************

Interested in yellow super dalmatian.. Please let me know shipping cost to 60137 and paypal address to send $.

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Click on (or cut and paste into you browser's
location window) the URL below to view the ad that
this message is in response to.

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?de=688791&cat=31


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This message was sent by an unregistered or non logged in user.
This person may or may not be who they say they are.
The return address they provide may or may not be their correct address..........

Sent 09:21 AM, May 29th, 2009 from I.P. Address 99.144.219.221/adsl-99-144-219-221.dsl..emhril.sbcglobal.net

__________________________________________________ _______________

She originally had someone else interested in the geckos from the ad. Monday 6-1-09, I was contacted by Susan and told that deal fell through and the gecko was still available. I paypaled her the $125 on 6-1-09.

__________________________________________________ _______________
From: Carrie ONeal
To: W P Bacon
Sent: Monday, June 1, 2009 3:38:44 PM
Subject: Re: Message about: Young Cresteds - Yellow Super Dalmation



What about Wednesday? I can have it shipped to my work..



Carrie O'Neal


----- Original Message -----

From: W P Bacon

To: Carrie ONeal

Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 5:00 PM

Subject: Re: Message about: Young Cresteds - Yellow Super Dalmation



Carrie,



Sorry I will not be able to ship tonight.... What is a day another day that works for you? I need your address and please tell me what the weather is like by you.

Susan


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From: Carrie ONeal
To: W P Bacon
Sent: Monday, June 1, 2009 7:44:12 AM
Subject: RE: Message about: Young Cresteds - Yellow Super Dalmation

Whoo hoo, I’ll will get the $ over right away. Please let me know when you think you could ship. I will be home tomorrow if that is possible.



Carrie




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From: W P Bacon [mailto:cvgeckoranch@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 9:26 AM
To: Carrie ONeal
Subject: Re: Message about: Young Cresteds - Yellow Super Dalmation



Carrie,



Looks like the other deal fell through. The dalmation is still available. If your still interested, our paypal account is wpbacon@yahoo.com.



Hope to hear from you soon...



Susan




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From: Carrie ONeal
To: W P Bacon
Sent: Monday, June 1, 2009 5:12:32 AM
Subject: Re: Message about: Young Cresteds - Yellow Super Dalmation

Great, thanks for your time. I'll watch out for the pics. Obviously, if something happens and the dalmation from the ad becomes available I would still want to buy it.



Carrie O'Neal


----- Original Message -----

From: W P Bacon

To: Carrie ONeal

Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 11:52 PM

Subject: Re: Message about: Young Cresteds - Yellow Super Dalmation



Hi, Carrie.



It looks like he's going to take all three. I'm just waiting for the final payment. I'm going to get some pictures together of others I have available. I forward them as soon as I get them together.



Susan




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From: W P Bacon
To: Carrie ONeal
Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 5:26:45 AM
Subject: Re: Message about: Young Cresteds - Yellow Super Dalmation

Hi, Carrie.



I'm out with the family today... I'll e-mail the info this evening.



Susan




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From: Carrie ONeal
To: W P Bacon
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 9:17:05 PM
Subject: Re: Message about: Young Cresteds - Yellow Super Dalmation

Susan,



I am very interested in the yellow Dalmatian so if the deal falls through let me know and I will paypal you the money right away. Otherwise would love to see any other yellow Dalmatians that you have available.



Carrie O'Neal

__________________________________________________ _______________

The gecko was shipped 6-2-09 to arrive on 6-3-09, however UPS left the package in one of their stations and the gecko did not arrive until 6-4-09 (tracking number 1Z5F66490130392496). Upon opening the deli cup, I realized something was not right with this gecko. His spine was kinked or twisted. I immediately contacted Susan via email and sent her 4 pictures.

__________________________________________________ _______________

From: Carrie ONeal
To: W P Bacon
Sent: Thursday, June 4, 2009 8:26:52 AM
Subject: RE: Message about: Young Cresteds - Yellow Super Dalmation

Susan,



He is here – alive.

However I’m kind of concerned at the condition of his spine. I have attached pictures for your review.

Image 1534 – there should not be any kind of hump at the spot where his tail meets his body


Image 1530 - same


Image 1533 – you can see on the right side of his body behind his head his body sticks out – it does not do that on the other side.


Image 1532 - same

There is also a huge indentation where his head meets his body, but I was not able to catch it in any of the photos and didn’t want to disturb him to much.



Carrie

__________________________________________________ _______________

Her response was that she never noticed anything while she had the gecko and the pic from her ad didn't show anything other then the tail looking funny. She suggested it was from shipping and requested pictures of the box
__________________________________________________ _______________
From: W P Bacon [mailto:cvgeckoranch@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 10:55 AM
To: Carrie ONeal
Subject: Re: Message about: Young Cresteds - Yellow Super Dalmation



Carrie,



Well, first it's great that he made it alive. I was worried with the different temperature changes and delayed trip.



We didn't see any problems or think there was anything mal-formed about him/her. In looking at your pictures, it looks like the curve of the body is similar to the size of the cup. If the box was on it's side for a long time, maybe he was bouncing around in a funny position. Let him rest and see if he relaxes.



I looked at our picture from the ad and I can't see anything there. The back looks okay, but the tail looks funny.



Also, could you provide pictures of the box. I'm trying to figure out why it was held back in the first place.



Thanks,

Susan

__________________________________________________ _______________
After reading about MBD, I also realized that the gecko had swollen forearms. I contacted her back with the pics of the box she requested and let her know about the swollen forearms.
__________________________________________________ _______________
From: Carrie ONeal
To: W P Bacon
Sent: Thursday, June 4, 2009 10:10:29 AM
Subject: RE: Message about: Young Cresteds - Yellow Super Dalmation

The box arrived in perfect condition. I have attached some pics of the box. Anytime you ship you can write “live harmless reptile” on the box, fragile doesn’t mean much to the UPS people. I’ve also heard that they can hold back and/or refuse to deliver a box if there is a reptile/animal in it and it wasn’t disclosed to them.



I also looked at the pic from the ad again. While I can’t see either of the bumps in the pic that could just be from the angle of the pic. (not that it was intentional). Another thing I just noticed in my pics and yours is his swollen front limbs. This combined with the weird shape of the spine (possibly spine kinks) could point to MBD. This is a real concern for me as he will need to see a vet and if it is MBD will not be able to be used for breeding, which is the whole reason I purchase him.



Carrie

__________________________________________________ _______________
She stated that the pics of the gecko were a concern and asked with I wanted to do.

__________________________________________________ _______________
From: W P Bacon

To: Carrie ONeal

Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 2:54 PM

Subject: Re: Message about: Young Cresteds - Yellow Super Dalmation



Hi, Carrie.



We checked the other geckos that were with your's and they seem fine. I hadn't noticed any problem, but the pictures are a concern, What do you have in mind?



Susan

__________________________________________________ _______________
I emailed her back with two possible solutions. One - I can send the gecko back for a full refund of $125 and return shipping. Two - I could keep gecko at a reduced cost ($25). I also mentioned that she might be able to get the shipping cost back from UPS since they messed up delivery.

__________________________________________________ _______________
From: Carrie ONeal
To: W P Bacon
Sent: Thursday, June 4, 2009 3:46:43 PM
Subject: Re: Message about: Young Cresteds - Yellow Super Dalmation


Hi,

While I'm glad to hear the others aren't showing symptoms, it really doesn't change the condition of this gecko. I have checked the little guy over more since coming home. His front limbs are pretty swollen and his spine is pretty bad - I can send you more pics if you need them. I really feel that this is MBD based on all the symptoms. MBD is not curable, meaning he will always have a deformed spine. Gecko's with MBD can not be bred because their bones are too weak. My whole intent on purchasing this gecko was to use him for breeding in my super Dalmatian project. This is never easy and I really don't see many easy solutions. While I understand that you did not notice these issues, I feel they were there when the gecko was shipped.

1. I can send back the crested, you refund my total paid $125 plus the cost shipping to return him to you. I would have never purchased the gecko if I knew it's condition. I don't feel I should have to be responsible for shipping to me or back to you.

2. I don't send the crested back, while paying $25 - what would be considered pet quality/deformed price. This gecko will most likely require vet care and can never be bred. You refund me $100. I am again asking to be refunded for shipping because I would have never purchased this gecko with MBD as my intent was to breed him/her. I don't know if you contacted UPS, but you may be able to get a refund on the original shipping cost or at least a refund on part of the shipping cost since they did not deliver on time.

Let me know what you think or if you can think of anything else.

Carrie O'Neal

__________________________________________________ _______________

She emailed back that she would take the gecko back, but I would be responsible for return shipping. This is where things get funny. She now states that the problems are all visible in the picture from the ad and I should have noticed them, all the while continuing to state that she never noticed the problems while the gecko was in her possession.

__________________________________________________ _______________
From: W P Bacon
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 06:51:56 -0700 (PDT)
To: Carrie ONeal
Subject: Re: Message about: Young Cresteds - Yellow Super Dalmation


Hi, Carrie.

Our goal is to have satisfied customers. The gecko that was shipped to you is the gecko in the ad, and as you pointed out, the picture in the ad indicates the curve in the back and possibly swollen front limbs. Probably in your exuberance to purchase you may have missed those traits, but they are visible. We're both experienced breeders and sellers and just missed it. We didn't see any deformity before shipping, or we would have communicated it in the ad.

Since you are dis-satisfied with the purchase, we are happy to take the gecko back and refund the price of $125 on it's return. It seems only fair that you consider paying the return shipping, since the problem traits were visible in the ad.

Also, we would expect live delivery. I don't expect live delivery to be a problem, but wanted to state our expecation. Since this whole transaction is sort of messed up, it seems that we both have responsibility if it does not arrive alive and we would split the overall expense, your $125 original price, the $36 for return shipping ( I see you use ShipMyReptile and that there price is $36 ). That would be 161, split would be $80.50.



Thanks,
Susan

__________________________________________________ _______________
My response to her below. I highlighed my responses in red since I was responding to each paragraph in her email.
__________________________________________________ _______________

From: Carrie ONeal
To: W P Bacon
Sent: Friday, June 5, 2009 8:38:42 AM
Subject: Re: Message about: Young Cresteds - Yellow Super Dalmation



Please see my responses below:



Our goal is to have satisfied customers. The gecko that was shipped to you is the gecko in the ad, and as you pointed out, the picture in the ad indicates the curve in the back and possibly swollen front limbs. Probably in your exuberance to purchase you may have missed those traits, but they are visible. We're both experienced breeders and sellers and just missed it. We didn't see any deformity before shipping, or we would have communicated it in the ad.

Originally you stated that you reviewed the pic from the ad and didn't notice anything more then the tail looked funny and suggested that the issues were from shipping. Now your suggesting that I should have noticed the "traits", but because of my exburerance missed it. All the while stating you didn't notice anything when the gecko was in your possession. You can't have it both ways.

Since you are dis-satisfied with the purchase, we are happy to take the gecko back and refund the price of $125 on it's return. It seems only fair that you consider paying the return shipping, since the problem traits were visible in the ad.



If the traits were so visible in the ad, why do you continue to state that you never noticed anything while the gecko was in your possession. Again, you can't have it both ways. If I should have notice from the one (angled) pic then you should have definitely noticed while you had the gecko.

Your offer makes you whole. You get the gecko back. I'm sure UPS is refunding your original shipping because they messed up delivery. Meanwhile I would be out $40 (ship your reptiles charges a $4 service fee that doesn't show up in the quote until you are ready to pay) to return a mis-represented (whether intentional or not) sick gecko. As an experienced breeder, you can't honestly tell me that is fair?

Also, we would expect live delivery. I don't expect live delivery to be a problem, but wanted to state our expecation. Since this whole transaction is sort of messed up, it seems that we both have responsibility if it does not arrive alive and we would split the overall expense, your $125 original price, the $36 for return shipping ( I see you use ShipMyReptile and that there price is $36 ). That would be 161, split would be $80.50.



I don't see how I should take any responsiblity here. You want me to send back a sick animal who was extemely lucky to make it here alive in the first place considering his condition and the delay. You expect live delivery or want me to be out $80.50 if he dies. What if he dies from MBD - how is that my fault? You don't seem to understand this is a serious condition and they can die from it if not treated. You obviously weren't treating it if you never noticed it in the first place.


Carrie O'Neal
__________________________________________________ _______________
And her response, admitting that I am not responsible, but still expecting me to be at a loss if the gecko (with MBD) dies in transit.
__________________________________________________ _______________
----- Original Message -----

From: W P Bacon

To: Carrie ONeal

Sent: Friday, June 05, 2009 10:25 PM

Subject: Re: Message about: Young Cresteds - Yellow Super Dalmation



Carrie,



I can see from your responses that you are not responsible at all. Feel free tto return the gecko and we will pay $165. Again, we will split the expenses if the gecko arrives dead and will send $82.50.



I expect you'll be sending it on Monday, please forward the tracking number or if you decide to send it on a different date.



The address is

(removed by me as a courtesy)


Susan
__________________________________________________ _______________
At this point I had to step away from the situation for a few days, as I was beginning to feel a little frustrated. I wanted to make sure I was handling this in the proper manner. On Monday I sent an email stating that I wouldn't be shipping that day as I still did not feel her terms were fair in regards to the sick gecko arriving alive. Now, I do everything in my power to insure that any gecko I ship arrives alive, but the fact that I knew this one was sick worried me. I was also curious to see if UPS did in fact issue a refund.
__________________________________________________ _______________
From: Carrie ONeal
To: cvgeckoranch@yahoo.com
Sent: Monday, June 8, 2009 9:28:35 AM
Subject: RE: Message about: Young Cresteds - Yellow Super Dalmation


Susan,



I will not be shipping today.



I should not have to split the expense if the gecko dies in transit. You want me to send back a sick animal that was extremely lucky to make it here alive in the first place considering his condition and the delay on top of that. What if he dies from MBD during transit - how is that my fault? While I always do everything in my power to package geckos safely, you don't seem to understand this is a serious condition and geckos can die from it.



Did you receive a refund from UPS for the original shipping cost?



Carrie
__________________________________________________ _______________
Her response changed to again stating the problems were in the original pic and that I got what I paid for. I also noticed she avoided answering the question regarding the UPS refund.
__________________________________________________ _______________
From: W P Bacon
To: Carrie ONeal
Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 2:19 AM
Subject: Re: Message about: Young Cresteds - Yellow Super Dalmation


Carrie,

I am not convinced it has MBD. It seemed healthy and was very active when we packaged it for shipping. We've shipped hundreds of geckos and have never lost one.

The gecko was guaranteed for live delivery and it arrived alive. The gecko in the picture is the gecko you received. The traits you are concerned about were visible in the picture from the ad.

If you want to return the gecko on the terms I listed, we will take it back.

Susan
__________________________________________________ _______________
I replied regarding her not answering the question on whether a refund from UPS was issued and addressed her terms again.
__________________________________________________ _______________
From: Carrie ONeal
To: W P Bacon
Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2009 1:11:39 PM
Subject: Re: Message about: Young Cresteds - Yellow Super Dalmation


Susan,

You still did not answer my question on if UPS refunded the original shipping charges. If so, I expect you to refund the $50 shipping fee you charged me immediately.
Again, you refuse to admit to a problem, at the same time stating the problems are visible in the pics. So which is it? You can't say the gecko has no problems and at the same time indicate that the problems are visible in only picture your posted of the animal. Your ad has one angled pic of the gecko. I sent you several pictures that clearly show the issues immediately upon arrival. Kinked spine (only evident from a top view pic that I sent), humped back (evident from a side view pic that I sent) and swollen forearms (evident in both pics). If it is not MBD, what is it?

Carrie O'Neal
__________________________________________________ _______________
Her last email seems to indicate that UPS did issue a refund and clearly states that if a refund from UPS was issued, she is not going to refund the shipping cost I paid. If she is not even willing to refund the shipping cost that was refunded to her and that I paid, I begin to wonder if she would even return my money if I returned the gecko.
__________________________________________________ _______________
Hi, Carrie.

The shipping cost was paid as part of the guarantee for live delivery. The gecko arrived alive and we're not going to refund that to you, seperate from the terms we have discussed.

Not having the animal here, I can't comment on what it's condition could be. We have indicated that we will take the gecko back under the terms discussed earlier. Please do not ship on Thursday or Friday.

Susan

__________________________________________________ _______________
Below is my last/most recent email to her. I am not returning the gecko, I doubt I would get any refund based on her response regarding the refund from UPS. I am going to file a dispute with Paypal and my credit card company if necessary. I also let her know that I would be starting this thread.

__________________________________________________ _______________
From: Carrie ONeal [mailto:carrienkashe@comcast.net]
Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 1:08 PM
To: 'W P Bacon'
Subject: RE: Message about: Young Cresteds - Yellow Super Dalmation

Susan,

I paid the shipping and if UPS refunded you, then the only right thing to do, is to return it to me. It was my money. You should not be making a profit off of UPS’s mistake. Because of the delay in delivery, I had to rearrange my work schedule to be at work on the day the gecko actually arrived.
I will not be sending the gecko back. I now have serious doubts you would refund any of my money based on your response regarding the refund from UPS.
It is unfortunate that I have to do this. I will be starting a dispute with Paypal today and my credit card company if necessary. I will also be posting all emails regarding this situation on Fauna BOI as a warning to others.

Carrie

Unfortuately for you, paypal is not going to honor your claim unless you return the gecko. I'm not sure if your credit card will be able to help.

In your photos he does appear to have some sort of scoliosis but you can't really assume he has MBD if he hasn't been diagnosed by a vet. There are many more conditions that can cause a kinked spine and/or swollen limbs.
I agree that in his state he might not make the trip, and would also hesistate to send him back. I would try to get the seller to consent to either not hold you responsible if he does not arrive safely, or to reimburse you for a vet bill IF they diagnose something that was present before he came to you. Of course, that's another risk you'd be taking if they can't say for sure what happened. The photos in the ad definitely do NOT show that hump-back, and it should always be stated if an animal has any defect or abnormality. It definitely puts you between and rock and a hard place. At this point, you are going to lose money regardless of what happens, so if you can afford it, I would put his health first.

Its sad that there are breeders out there that won't stand behind their animals especially when they know they're in the wrong. The fact that she went back on what she originally said about the pics in her ad would worry me. I would also assume at that point the seller is going to say anything to keep the money she was paid for a healthy animal. Unfortunately, people have to deal with irresponsible people like this and are out time and money. At least there are places like this where we can warn others of shady breeders like this. I understand having a lot of animals and maybe missing some problems, but don't most breeders give the animal a once over before shipping it out? I know I do and have bought from others that did the same.

A buddy of mine recently had a similar experience with a different breeder/vender.

At least there are those of us that actually care about the health of our animals and the satisfaction of our customers. One more person on the list of breeders to not buy from.

I'm very sorry to hear that Carrie, I hope you get your money back. The seller seems to flip/flop every other email she/they send you. They are obviously not interested in correcting a problem they basically admit occurred prior to shipping. There is so much that can't be seen in a photograph, that to hold you liable for them selling you a deformed Gecko, (for whatever reason) is ridiculous.
It's ironic that while I am mainly a "snake" person. I have developed an interest in Cresties recently ( thanks to a lady at the Cleveland show) and am preparing a viv and looking to buy, I was actually looking at that ad. and considering a purchase from them. She/ they are definitely on my DO NOT BUY FROM list. Thanks for the info. Best of luck.

I don't know much about crested geckos, but I would be interested in seeing the pictures from the ad.

Has the accused been notified of this thread?

Originally Posted by Uroboros

I don't know much about crested geckos, but I would be interested in seeing the pictures from the ad.

Has the accused been notified of this thread?

Erik, There is one picture in the ad and the link is in the first post, here:

I responded to an ad on Kingsnake http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=31&de=688791 on 5-29, regarding the yellow dalmatian that was posted there.

Carrie, You might want to save/capture that ad for reference, in case it's deleted.
I believe Carries said she emailed here about it here:

I will also be posting all emails regarding this situation on Fauna BOI as a warning to others.

Carrie

Originally Posted by ForkedTung

Erik, There is one picture in the ad and the link is in the first post, here:

Carrie, You might want to save/capture that ad for reference, in case it's deleted.
I believe Carries said she emailed here about it here:

Thanks, I didn't even try the KS link, figured the ad was gone already, kinda dumb, sorry.

Here's the pic for future reference. I don't know cresties, so I'm no judge.