Underground Reptiles: Sick animal inquiry?

Originally Posted by thamnophis123

For those who want to question silly details of timing of vet visits, or whether it is wise to buy water snakes from a wholesaler, or whether they can dig up a scientific journal that calls into question an assumption made years ago, all I can ask is that you stop. Take a deep breath and try to refocus on the issue at hand. Your inability to focus on the issue at hand makes you look silly.

Given that you have not provided any proof to your claim that SFD has extirpated massasaugas in Illinois and the literature provided doesn't support your claim is where you come off as over-reacting and dismissive particularly when you call those kinds of questions as silly. You and how you present your claims are important to whether or not your claim is going to be considered credible and ad hominem attacks even relative mild ones are not going to get you anywhere.

Your attempt to dismiss the peer reviewed documentation as trivial is pretty specious since it calls into question just how long fungal blister type diseases have been present in the wild and pet trade. This may not be a "new" disease but simply an expansion of one that has been present for many decades and is only now becoming identified. As an additional point, if you are calling into question the older peer reviewed literature on nothing more than your personal opinion, you are again losing credibility and in that case the more recent information should be dismissed just as readily. You cannot choose to cherry pick what you think is important and what isn't in your argument.

Originally Posted by thamnophis123

Your opinions on these trivialities really aren't important right now.

Actually they are important, if you want people to respond positively and proactively then you should avoid insulting them and ignoring questions because you are bothered that people aren't running around like their heads are on fire on your word. Even if this is SFD, then it may still be husbandry related on your part, see the article I linked on water snakes above specifically this article

Lee, Y., et al. "Population monitoring and habitat characterization for the conservation and recovery of the northern population of the copperbelly water snake (Nerodia erythrogaster neglecta). Michigan Natural Features Inventory." Michigan Natural Features Inventory 2007-04 (2007).

where a disease fitting the same description was described in wild snakes and noted that the symptoms are common in captive species as well specifically from that article

We observed the snake again on 20 May and 8 June 2006 when it was captured and brought to the Detroit Zoo for diagnosis and treatment because we observed that the individual’s head and neck were
covered with blisters, and its left eye was filled with pus. The snake had been observed in the same wetland on a buttonbush brush pile. The Detroit Zoo staff has diagnosed this condition as blister disease which is
apparently fairly common among snakes in captivity when the snakes have been exposed to very humid conditions. It is a condition associated with snakes occurring in very humid or wet conditions. Snakes
often recover from blister disease after several sheds. For example, snakes may emerge from hibernation with blister disease but recover after a few sheds.
However, some snakes may have a hard time recovering from blister disease – e,g. if it continues to occur under conditions which caused the blister
disease originally.

I was hoping Underground would jump on here and engage - not about their side of the story - but (as I encouraged them to do) - acknowledge that this is potentially a big deal - not only for their own business, but for our wild herp populations, as well as our captive animals. And also talk about what they plan to do about it.

Your problem is that you aren't sure it is a big deal but you want it to be one, I'm not surprised a vendor doesn't want to engage given your leap off the cliff before you even have the test results back, if the test is negative for SFB and turns out to be a bacterial infection (ala the article I reposted above) what are you going to do about the negative attention you directed to a company and the hobby? Don't get me wrong, SFD is serious since we don't know the reason for it becoming so prevalent in the wild but as I noted above there are more than 50 years of descriptions in the literature for snakes with a similar symptom and we don't know if they are the same or not at this time. (I can't remember if it was blister disease or mouth rot Carl Kauffield in Snakes and Snake Hunting (1957) said there was no cure and to release the snake hoping it would cure itself or I would have used that as well as an example).

Originally Posted by thamnophis123

I'm a pretty rational guy. So those who want to throw the "hysterical" or "sky is falling" spear I'd ask you to reconsider - maybe double check your own motivation for your accusations. This may may a big deal, but more likely it is another step in what will eventually (and slowly) be a ban on interstate movement of native, and/or possibly exotic, herp species.

If it is SFD, why would it have to be slow? USFW could simply add the disease to the injurious list just like Bsal and ban the potential movement of the vector (the animal).

Originally Posted by thamnophis123

All we can do here is try to focus on the bigger issue - maybe including the role that large scale collectors, importers, wholesalers have on this emerging disease - and try not to get bogged down in the minutia.Joe

Its clear that the only thing you think is the big picture is what you are running around yelling about before you have even confirmed it. If you were that worried about it, you wouldn't have been self-treating the animals but would have sought veterinary assistance in the beginning. Did you consider that your naturalistic set-up could have made the issue worse as it enabled cross reinfection of a pathogen(s) as the animals were all back in contact with each other, exposed to greater humidity and potentially establishing the pathogen in the substrate, preventing the self clearance seen in C. horridus? Did you think to look at your husbandry technique to ensure that you would not be vectoring between cages to enable infection and reinfection? Not all disinfectants work on SFD ...

Don't attempt to denigrate the questions because they are inconvenient as your ability to present the case depends on your response.

some comments

Ed

I was looking at those pictures and some of the blisters and eye infection could be caused by too humid environment without a place for the snake to dry out.

Originally Posted by FresnoTortoise

I was looking at those pictures and some of the blisters and eye infection could be caused by too humid environment without a place for the snake to dry out.

That is actually a very good point, a LOT of people are under the misconception that water snakes ACTUALLY spend the majority of their time submerged in water, when in reality it is quite the opposite.
My water snakes have a huge dish for bathing but have lots of very deep susbstrate and honestly they spend 90% of the time burrowing through the substrate rather than actually in the water.
Just my personal observation.....

Originally Posted by thamnophis123

I spoke with both Underground Reptile and Florida Fish and Wildlife today and USGS Wildlife Health. I have a call in to USFW which can issue rules governing the interstate trade of wildlife. This is an unfolding situation that may take weeks or months to play out.

Are you kidding me??? Having a small burden of proof for calling out a company on some hobbyist-run good guy/bad guy forum is one thing. But having that same shaky evidence and using it to call USFW and potentially cost us MORE rules regarding interstate trade? Because your shitty $10 wc water snake developed some blisters in your care, after being in captivity for weeks/months? How about no. Please and Thank you.

Originally Posted by thamnophis123

Hello all - I bought new born water snakes from Underground Reptiles this summer. They have developed a disease that vets have speculated is Snake Fungal Disease (SFD).

I have spent $185 testing one of the snakes for the disease. If you're not familiar with it, SFD is a contagious, potentially lethal fungal disease that is killing wild snakes, as well as captives. It has no known cure.

I have had others tell me they bought snakes from Underground Reptiles that died with symptoms similar to SFD. While my snake is being tested I would like to see if any of you have, or know of someone who has had snakes from Underground develop skin lesions, scabby, crusty bumps, swollen eyes, disfigured areas in the nose / lip area.

If so, photos would be great, descriptions would be good to have as well.



Thanks -

Joe Monahan

Joe I am sorry but what did you expect underground reptiles is a wholesaler that's why their animals are so cheap they import them in the very same day they have them up for sale to export for sell to companies like snakes at sunset, big apple, or other retail stores who then turn around and sell the animals again

If you want a quality animal from somebody who actually captive born bred the animal then you're gonna have to pay higher dollar figure otherwise you can get an animal for cheap from people like that and it is a gamble regarding its health and whether or not it will survive there all about acquiring high-volume at low prices and selling it at a low price quickly in order to make a profit

Sorry if this sounds rude but everybody who wants to buy a cheap animal goes to these wholesalers to get brand-new imports that are farmbred and maybe born in captivity but farmbred or wild caught and they sell high-volume at low prices they do not quarantine the animals they do not keep them for 60 or 90 days to make sure that they are healthy they do not give them vet treatments they might give them a dose of medicine for parasites but they turn around and they sell them fast for cheap prices and then people get upset because the animals unhealthy well I'm sorry what do you expect you're buying from a wholesaler importer for cheap you get what you pay for if you want a quality reptile then by from somebody who does not own a retail store retail stores do not breed all of their specimens most are acquired at wholesale cost and turned around and sold immediately

I sell my captive born and bred blue axanthic iguanas for $250 where these wholesalers are selling them for $125 maybe a little more maybe a little less you can tell the difference in quality between theirs and mine. My locality animals sell for $500-$3000 depending on the snake age and size where people like underground reptiles, big apple, snakes at sunset and these other retail stores will sell localities for anywhere from $100 to $300.

I get people emailing me or making comments about about how cheap they can get their animals from these type of sellers and how it's ridiculous that I want the price that I want and I'm sorry if you can't see the quality and the difference then absolutely go by your cheap animal but don't cry and get upset when the animal dies or when you find out it's sick what do you expect from that type of seller.

Kevin South, you are misinformed and making assumptions.
Without hurting feelings, nor explaining why or why not, just want to let you know we HAVE NEVER bought an animal from Underground directly, now back to the water snake that was kept to wet.

also since you called my shop out again, we get most of the $100-$300 LOCALITY animals from BREEDERS LIKE YOU.
So please do not lump us into the category of cheap, we don't care, etc about anything especially when you post an ad for a red iguana breeder male that you started a BOI thread about because it was missing a toe or something, yet don't disclose that in your ad.

Back to the water snake kept to wet. sorry for not sticking to topic, but have to defend my company and my stock when ill informed people try calling us out, when we get almost all OF OUR STOCK from breeders just like him.

Originally Posted by Snakesatsunset

Kevin South, you are misinformed and making assumptions.
Without hurting feelings, nor explaining why or why not, just want to let you know we HAVE NEVER bought an animal from Underground directly, now back to the water snake that was kept to wet.

You may not buy from Underground. I never said that. I stated you import animals and turn around and sell them immediately just like underground. Dont deny it. I have personally contacted your company regarding animals in the past and directly asked and was told you got the animal in the other day. You posted a Suriname litter from a fresh imported WC female. It claimed it was the largest litter yo date approximately 70 babies.

I am simply stating when people buy animals for cheap there is a reason why they are cheap and you need to inheret the risks that come with that decision. When i contacted your company about the boa i was considering I had to weigh in my decision was i willing to take the risk associated with buying a fresh WC import for the price you were firm on and risk the animal having issues in the future because of that. I was not so i passed.

If i had decided to and something happened I would not be posting on BOI complaining and blaming the importer for the issues. You pay for what you get in life.

Originally Posted by Snakesatsunset

also since you called my shop out again, we get most of the $100-$300 LOCALITY animals from BREEDERS LIKE YOU.
So please do not lump us into the category of cheap, we don't care, etc about anything especially when you post an ad for a red iguana breeder male that you started a BOI thread about because it was missing a toe or something, yet don't disclose that in your ad.

Back to the water snake kept to wet. sorry for not sticking to topic, but have to defend my company and my stock when ill informed people try calling us out, when we get almost all OF OUR STOCK from breeders just like him.

You dont get any of your animals from me. I dont wholesale my animals. I have disclosed that the male is missing a toe. I have provided full background story Micheal Barrera to any person who has inquired about him or any other reptile from me.