The PROOF that venomoid snakes are not safe!`

To Mr. Moore and other people reading this post,

I would like to say that my original post on Gary's discussion was simply to thank him for posting it here at FaunaClassifieds. The only reason I have been replying to members is because a discussion has started regarding venomoids. I think the discussion is separate from the objective of sharing the video and I will be happy to address any concerns regarding venomoids via email, telephone, or on a different post. I want to make sure people understand that I'm not trying to deviate attention from the importance of the video just so I can state personal opinions on venomoids.

Original post:

"I saw the video on YouTube. I sent a msg to ask permission to post it on my website. Great information. On behalf of Venomoid, Inc and Devenomized.com, we have signed the petition for illegal adenectomies and ductectomies by individuals who are not licensed DVMs.

Thanks for sharing the link Gary. "

I vote for Gary.

It is like owning a Ferrari and not allowing to engine to go over 3,500 rpms. Sure it is dangerous no matter what speed you drive, being on the road is dangerous, but what's the point of owning a Ferrari if you are not going to drive it at a speed the engine is designed for? To show off?

"Look, I have a 'venomous' snake I can hold."

Look the point is that it can happen and you hold the snakes to make money. You targer people that should not be owning hots in the first place. You once said that you agreed that free handling at a show is wrong now you do it a lot. I am telling you. An adult gabby was being held with hands only and the person behind the table which was a younger male(under 35 or so) was telling people they could do this too. Blah blah blah.

There is a danger that never comes from the site or the venomoid incs helpers that should be spoken. These animals could become hot again. They should not be handled.

And I asked why the DR would not promise that they would never produce venom again. It is always said it is for legal reasons and would set him up for a lawsuit. then I ask why not put in the paper work they could become venomous again. that would give him a written out if it did happen. OH WAIT you would lose sales...........

THE GLANDS AND SUCH ARE REMOVED AND REPLACED WITH MAN MADE MATERIAL THERES NO WAY IT CAN BE VENOMOUS AGAIN PERIOD..

Christian,
I understand what you are saying about video....I think. Here's the problem, though: You want to use it to warn people away from animals produced by nonvets, and toward V.Inc, by saying (in essence) This could happen to you, if you buy from somebody else. The obvious problem with that is that it seems you are saying that the same thing cannot happen with a void produced by an experienced vet...but, in practically the same breath, you admit that it can.

As for the other issue, I think we can all agree that if this procedure is going to be performed, it should be by a licensed vet experienced in the surgery (and, by necessity, one intimately familiar with the anatomies involved) - simply because that choice would be expected to provide safer, more humane conditions for the animal (including anesthesia, pain management, and infection control), and result in both improved survival rates AND greater safety to the end purchaser. That acknowledgement is a far cry from not recognizing & acknowledging the potential dangers, or being supportive of the theory & practice.

Originally Posted by bermrandy

THE GLANDS AND SUCH ARE REMOVED AND REPLACED WITH MAN MADE MATERIAL THERES NO WAY IT CAN BE VENOMOUS AGAIN PERIOD..

Then why will a vet NOT put that on paper then?

Originally Posted by hhmoore

Christian,
I understand what you are saying about video....I think. Here's the problem, though: You want to use it to warn people away from animals produced by nonvets, and toward V.Inc, by saying (in essence) This could happen to you, if you buy from somebody else. The obvious problem with that is that it seems you are saying that the same thing cannot happen with a void produced by an experienced vet...but, in practically the same breath, you admit that it can.

As for the other issue, I think we can all agree that if this procedure is going to be performed, it should be by a licensed vet experienced in the surgery (and, by necessity, one intimately familiar with the anatomies involved) - simply because that choice would be expected to provide safer, more humane conditions for the animal (including anesthesia, pain management, and infection control), and result in both improved survival rates AND greater safety to the end purchaser. That acknowledgement is a far cry from not recognizing & acknowledging the potential dangers, or being supportive of the theory & practice.

Man right on....

The thing I have been saying for years is that the vets that do do this to sell will not put on paper or their site that there is a chance for the snake to become venomous again.

Humans make mistakes. I hope for others lives that the vets that do this are perfect.

Originally Posted by hhmoore

Christian,
I understand what you are saying about video....I think. Here's the problem, though: You want to use it to warn people away from animals produced by nonvets, and toward V.Inc, by saying (in essence) This could happen to you, if you buy from somebody else. The obvious problem with that is that it seems you are saying that the same thing cannot happen with a void produced by an experienced vet...but, in practically the same breath, you admit that it can.

As for the other issue, I think we can all agree that if this procedure is going to be performed, it should be by a licensed vet experienced in the surgery (and, by necessity, one intimately familiar with the anatomies involved) - simply because that choice would be expected to provide safer, more humane conditions for the animal (including anesthesia, pain management, and infection control), and result in both improved survival rates AND greater safety to the end purchaser. That acknowledgement is a far cry from not recognizing & acknowledging the potential dangers, or being supportive of the theory & practice.

I agree. As far as the video, you are correct, my interest is to provide the general public that's interested in viewing my website with information showing how illegal devenomization have a high risk in rendering a venomoid a venomous snakes again. However, it is not my intension or plan to include that when surgical procedures are done by a licensed DVM to render a venomous snakes non-venomous, the animal has a potential to inject venom because the "experienced" DVM forgets or makes a mistake by leaving an organ intact or doing a partial adenectomy. Of course, i'm not going to include that. That would be the job of a DVM in training, a graduate student at a veterinary hospital, or a DVM that lack the experienced you are refering to in your 2nd parragraph. Basically, the video's objective will be simple. if you want a venomoid, get it from an experienced DVM and not someone who tells you is a venomoid when it's not. Would the video have a link to Venomoid, Inc? No. I worked with Dr. Sabatini running his table at the Hamburg show; however, my personal website has nothing to do with Venomoid, Inc. I support licensed DVMs providing reptile hobbysts with an alternative to hots. Unfortunately, the only licensed DVM that has no problem providing information about his business is Dr. Sabatini. If I knew of another DVM, he will be listed on my website too.

On my website, I've included links to other forums where potential buyers can read different opinions perhaps like yours. I don't have a problem with that. The buyer needs to make a decision and they hold a level of accountability.

Originally Posted by Gary O

Man right on....

The thing I have been saying for years is that the vets that do do this to sell will not put on paper or their site that there is a chance for the snake to become venomous again.

Humans make mistakes. I hope for others lives that the vets that do this are perfect.

I"m sure Dr. Sabatini has consulted a lawyer about this issue. If you have any further questions, please ask him in person, call him, or send an email. I'm not his lawyer.

You need to do some reading about liability release forms so you stop repeating yourself.

I'll give you a good answer:

Let's assume I'm an experienced DVM. This is what I would do,

A) I will state clearly on my website that the animals are surgically altered and render non-venomous by a full adenectomy and a full ductectomy. Since we know it is fact and not fiction that if I remove the glands completely, the snakes cannot inject venom in their entire lifespan

B) I will show baby venomoids if allowed by a reptile show sponsor and only show them to an adult. I probably wouldn't take out aggressive snakes since I don't want to bleed all over the table. I won't allow people to handle them because some shows don't allow that and i don't the snakes they have not purchased to bite people.

C) I will provide a liability release form stating that the buyer is responsible to have the animal checked yearly by a vet, that my business recommends you treat the animal like a venomous snake, and that the animal should only eat prekilled or F/T. I will provide a 14 day guarantee that the animal will eat and if it dies, a full replacement will be given to the buyer.

D) I will microchip every snake

Umm sounds like what's already done by Dr. Sabatini doesn't it?

I'll tell you one reason. This world if full of crazy people and before I fall asleep doing a full adenectomy, i know that something crazier is most likely to happen before I fall asleep at the wheel. The risk is greater that we have an idiot out there who would purchase one of my snakes and take the microchip out. Then this idiot will put the microchip in the same type of venomous snake. A few years later, this idiot will take photographs, make a video, etc etc and then post them all over the internet and youtube. Then this idiot will file a lawsuit against me because the venomoid he purchased that has a microchip in it clearly injects venom and can kill rodents, cats, and even killed a cow. The idiot has everything well documented and plenty of proof showing the snake injecting venom, spitting venom, vomiting venom, venom is everywhere, it's like a hose. At that point, I would scan the snake and bang! it matches a snake i surgically altered 4 years before. At that point, I would be done! I would be on CNN, the local newspaper, and maybe loose my license.

However, if i have a liability release form stating step C, then mostly likely the buyer will have a lot of legal troubles because it was clear that he was told to take the snake to yearly visits, handle the snake like a hot snake, etc etc... This is an extreme example and likely never to happen, but I would bet there is a greater chance for that to happen than for me to have a few drinks, watch a movie, and at the same time perform a full adenectomy with my eyes closed.

Another example will be someone gets bitten by their Gaboon viper and the bite gets infected and they have an allergic reaction. The local hospital will treat the incident as a venomous snake and legally it will seem the buyer was bitten by a venomous snake. Even though no venom was injected, the buyer ended up at a hospital and claims some venom was injected and the reason no antivenom was required was because the amount was extremly small due to reparative regrowth. One things leads to another and i'm on CNN again. By now, i'm more famous than joe the plumber and joe only owes $450 in taxes while i'll have two lawsuits up my butt so huge that I wouldn't no what to do.

Why? All because I wanted to provide a document that stays your snake will never inject venom. So, I started thinking about all these remote possibilities and I figured it will be best to have a legal liability release form that I give every buyer to protect myself. I know I'll have many people that will claim I do this for one reason or another, but the fact is, I'm the only licensed DVM in the US who provides this alternative to any interested person where legal while there might be other people selling so called "Venomoids" and they don't have to face the same scrutiny that some people put me through. So, I ask myself, is it worth it to debate the issue when I already know people buy my products? is it worth to talk to the wall when the wall is not going to talk back? For Dr. Sabatini is not, but I don't have a problem debating the issue. I think debating the issue brings out more attention and if one more person decides than i'm totally off and wrong, then that's a win for you, but if someone who never knew about venomoids makes an accountable decision based on the information provided here and in other places, then that's a win for me.

I see debating at a win-win situation. so keep them coming




C)

Honestly, Christian, your depiction of the way an error could be made is pretty pathetic.

have a few drinks, watch a movie, and at the same time perform a full adenectomy with my eyes closed.

I'm not belittling any vet's abilities, but to suggest that they'd have to be impaired, distracted, or half asleep in order to mess up is ridiculous...and makes a mockery of this dicussion. I doubt that Dr Sabatini would suggest that this is anything but an intricate procedure that requires not only the aforementioned intimate knowledge of the anatomy of the venom production/conduction system, but the skill to carry out precise, detailed excision of said system. Reports I have read indicate that it is relatively easy for even a knowledgeable veterinarian to either miss a little, or remove some muscle/tissue that is not part of the target. While removing a little extra is no great problem, except for the need for more cosmetic filler, missing a little could be all the difference in the world to the keeper.