Never Assume!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Today we were in a bit of a rush to go meet with a realtor to look at a house. But my snakes were letting me know they were HUNGRY! So I chose to feed them before we left. Each one took their rat, and disappeared into their hides. Seeing them no more after that, told me they were done. WRONG!!! I returned several hours later to find Iris still trying to swallow her rat, along with the two paper towels that were inside her hide box. She apparently had some trouble with it, and dragged it back into her hide to work on it. Since she was raised primarily on chicken, she sometimes has trouble finding the head. So she had chewed this poor rat until it was like swiss cheese, and then got hold of one corner of the paper towel, but could not get the whole wad to go down, but she would not release until I grabbed hold of her. She had been struggling with that for nearly 4 hours. Now just imagine what would have ensued if she had been able to swallow the paper towe!!! She is my only adult female, now that Gidny is gone. I would have been devastated!!! So now I understand why some of you feed in a separate container. And for those of you who are doing things the way I do,....NEVER ASSUME!!!! Check on each animal before you leave them alone. This could have been a disaster! Perhaps I need to go back through Army basic training again so that I can re-learn the golden rule. At any rate, please learn from my mistake! Don't let this happen to your snakes. Good luck, and good will,
T.

Okay, I have been preaching the use of a separate tub to feed Drymarchon for as long as I can remember, as fervently as a new found revival tent convert to boot! One reason has been to address the association of enclosure opening with a feeding response and the second is to avoid the ingestion of substrate.
Another aspect I preach is the use of smallish prey items, as Drymarchon are not dainty feeders and in their ravenous spell will often swallow their prey backwards, which is why smaller, more frequent meals are recommended. I seriously doubt the paper towels would have caused any harm, but when combined with a difficult to swallow prey item, the absorbent nature of such could have caused enough friction to choke your poor girl.
I ma VERY relieved to hear no harm came to Iris. Now, get rid of those monster rats and get yourself some Rubbermaid blanket tubs for feeding! ;0)

Thanks for sharing, T,

Jeff

Well Jefro, I hear you loud and clear. And I respectfully disagree. I think the issue here is not my personal preferance to feed in the cage. Rather it is vigilance. And never assuming that all is o.k. I should have confirmed that the mission was complete prior to implimenting my exit strategy. There have been a couple times when they got hold of a peice of paper, but with me keeping a watchful eye on them, it was easy enough to just reach in with the tongs and correct the situation. But if I am not there, I can't fix it. I still like this way better because it is faster, easier, and safer for all parties concerend. I do not wish to try to convince an adult drymarchon to exit it's cage, and enter a feeding tub when it is hungry, and waiting to be fed! I do not relish being bitten. We have learned this routine. I have learned to read their body language, and they know not to attack until I give the signal,...usually. And I feed twice weekly, usually Tuesday, and Friday. And I feed multiple small items. No monster rats here! But Iris just isn't very good at eating things other than chicken wing segments. That's all she ever got before I aquired her. So she needs some special attention, and I forgot that. I won't forget again! As far as swallowing substrate, I don't recomend the use of substrate, and that's the main reason. The paper has never been a problem before. But the ONE time I assume everything is alright,...it all goes to hell in a hand basket. So the lesson is still the same. Never assume. Period.
T.

Snakes are pretty tough when it comes to eating. I have a 7' Guyanan Boa that, when she came in, would only eat if I put the rat on a plate for her. Well, I ran out of paper plates one feeding and decided to use one of those foam meat trays that I used to vacuum seal rats. Continued feeding the rest of the collection and went back to remove the tray. The tray was nowhere to be found, not buried, not under her, nowhere. When the realization hits that your snake just ate a big sheet of styrofoam, the anxiety is not far behind. Five stressful days later out pops a foam turd. Actually, it was quite amazing, the tray was neatly folded twice in a "Z" shape and nicely compressed. I have a picture of it somewhere I will have to dig up.

By the same token, impaction can cause serious problems from nonfeeding or constipation all the way to the snake exploding.

Taking a feeding response bite from an adult couperi is not high on my to-do list. I think I would rather take a hit from the Chondro. So what about conditioning? I have my Alligator clicker trained. She has never tried to bite me, but if you click the dog clicker, then she is all teeth and literally climbing the walls. What about visual conditioning of Drys to further control the feeding response? I have talked to a couple people who claim to have Cobras conditioned to visual cues. Just a thought.

If mine are hiding, they will come out when I tap repeatedly on the cage or hide box. If they are out and about, I need only wave the food item back and forth in front of them. So I guess they respond to both sight and sound. But they only respond when they are hungry. So I have learned to test them when in doubt, before opening the cage. They know when I'm about to feed them, and when I'm just going to handle them. But I know when they are wanting to be fed, and when they aren't hungry. So I guess it's a mutual communication. Although it hasn't always been that way. When I first aquired Mongo, and Iris, we hadn't learned each other yet. One day Mongo was hungry. I didn't realize his body language yet. And I made the mistake of reaching in and touching him. He nailed my hand, and tore me wide open. Bled, and oozed for several days. Now we both no better. After he did it, you could tell he realized his mistake. As did I. When they aren't hungry, it's no problem. But when they are ready to eat, extreme caution is in order! Which is why I won't feed in a seperate container. They get way too exited, and they are so fast, and so powerful.
T.
T.

But I rigidly stand by my statement.
You can condition Drymarchon simply by placing them into a separate feeding tub, which elicits a feeding response once they become acclimated to the process, as feeding them within their enclosure is dangerous for both the keeper and the kept, as you have recently found out. Personally, I prefer to save the snake the stress of being bothered while trying to feed, should something go wrong in my presence, but the use of tubs prevents such issues, whether I am there or not. Using a tub further reduces the likelihood of a serpent, as intelligent as Drymarchon, from associating every entry of the enclosure with feeding.
Keep in mind, I do not believe in cutting corners with Drymarchon and I have close to 100 of them. It does not take a great deal of time to transfer them into feeding tubs.
Also, one cannot compare boids to drys when it comes to feeding, as they are entirely different in that regard.
Some things are learned with time and after close to 30 years of working with virtually every species of Drymarchon under the sun, I truly believe feeding tubs are the way to go. However, to each their own and there really is no single way to do things correctly..

Best regards,

Jeff

Feeding responses are of little concern to me as I hook virtually every snake out of the enclosure. It is second nature when maintaining a mixed collection of harmless and venomous species. I also find that hooking them out is less stressful on many species as the hook is not seen as a predator. That is how I have a docile Nerodia

I agree with both of you. And I would have little respect for anyone who did not stand by their statements! It seems that we snake people are, as a general rule, stubborn. I don't know why. I do know that I get my thick headedness from my mom. A couple years ago she had a brain tumor surgically removed. Afterwords, the surgeon said "she had the thickest skull he had ever encountered." I said, " you haven't seen mine!"

A hook is a wonderful new tool which I have only recently learned to use. And I still don't use it very often. Only when the snakes tell me I need it. And they do tell me. I just have to pay attention. I rely more on my own intuition, and recognition of their body language. But hooking all snakes every time, to get them out is certainly the safest way to go. And tub feeding is certainly the safest way to feed drys, once they have been conditioned to do so I would think.

And I understand why Jeff feeds in a separate container. It's just a matter of personal preference I guess. As both techniques have advantages and disadvantages. And Jeff, if you ever find yourself in such a position that you need my help in caring for your collection, don't hesitate to ask. You should rest assured that I would be honored, and I will follow your protocol to the letter.

A similar note might be our individual fishin techniques. I like crank baits, and conventional tackle, Jeff likes flies, and fly rods. To each his own. Although I will give him s**t about it, if he ever fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinally goes fishin with me. That's just what freinds do. I only pick on people I like.

In retrospect my first, and most important mistake was getting into a big rush while feeding. Which led to the assumption that all was o.k. In the end, each of us will adopt the feeding protocol which we like best, for our own reasons. But we can never assume anything. Always be sure before you leave. Snakes are like little kids. They can, and will get into all kinds of trouble without parental supervision. So this merely affirms two valuable lessons I already learned years ago. And I guess I just needed to be reminded. Take your time, and never assume.

Now when are we goin fishin?!
T.

I think after reading this thread (you'll all probably laugh at me) I'm going to do something a bit different.

I have TWO big visions I use to switch my indigo back and forth out of as he messes them up. I think from now on I'll leave substrate OUT of the unused one and feed him IN this clean one. I probably should have been doing it this way anyways. This thread encouraged me to get going and do it right :-)

Yeah, I spoil my snake :-) Two cages LOL

Originally Posted by epidemic

.......... and I have close to 100 of them.
Best regards,

Jeff

Gad.

When do you eat ? When do you sleep. That is insane man :-)