Trans x trans?

Hey everyone,
I saw on an ad that said you cant breed a trans to a trans? Otherwise the offspring die. This is news to me in all of my experiance. I do not haven any trans I only have 2 hets so let me know what you think?
THanks guys

http://www.reptilerooms.com/forums/l...hp/t58022.html

This link has lots of info. From what I've read, it isn't the Trans/Trans pairings that mess up the offspring. It's the constant inbreeding of the morph that gives the deformities. When they were first being produced people were inbreeding them like crazy thinking they would be able to produce more of and better Trans. but in the end they ended up with deformed and dead babies.

Hope this helps, correct me if I'm wrong. It's just what I've read from that link.

-Nichole

Thats what I thought People have breeding trans together all the time, anyone else have an oppinion?

I think the main reason for most people avoiding a Trans/Trans pair is to strengthen the genetics of the morph. Sort of like fixing what the creators did with all the inbreeding and such. This is why I personally won't be doing Trans/Trans pairing until there is more information.

-Nichole

Here's a better "break down"....

They all come from the same place and the same founding line. The first
time they appeared was in a clutch of them that hatched in England in 2001
(might have been 2002, but I am sure it was not before. That clutch had two
translucent in it, with the other siblings being het for trans That entire
clutch was purchased by Sandfire Ranch, as all the babies (and parents) were
hets for future breeders. The English breeder sold sibling clutches to
people in Europe and the US both before and after those 2 babies appeared.
So these also were het, but sometimes not known yet and not displaying the
trait. This is where the other suppose lines came from, but they all
originated from the same parents. the English breeder, Sandfire from both
clutched sold before and after the trans appeared.

A few breeders had these pop up in their clutches in 2001-2003.. But, they
all originated from Sandfire Ranch OR the original English Breeders line (so
the same RELATED line).

Another breeder (Leaping Lizards) had two hatch out in a clutch of theirs,
the parents where from Sandfire Ranch. They called them lavender dragons or
midnight dragons, only because no one knew what they were as the name
translucent was not being used yet. One died fairly soon after hatching, I
am not sure about the other one, but the owner Connie said it was very
sickly, very genetically weak, they are no longer around to contact and
clarify info from and I have not seen them at shows for the past two years
to know if it survived or was bred. But they were the first to show a photo
of a translucent and if someone wants to see it and the proof of the year
they can email me off list. They sold the siblings as regular dragons, as
they thought the others were just weak defective dragons, but again the
dragons were hets.

Sundial had one hatch also and they kept it, it has survived and they also
sold the other siblings as regular dragons. The owner of that states "Dana
Pennebaker of Sundial: I would have no way of isolating the trait without
doing some in breeding back to parents or sibling inbreeding. We are not
planning on doing so."Again, that makes their parent dragons hets and all
the offspring they produce are hets also, but few would realize that as you
seeing nothing different from the babies.

So, as you can see from just these dragons, there were many hets out there
from 2002-2003, but all from the same place originally. Naturally more
started hatching to other breeders from the unknown hets, but few survived
long or they were so weak they were not bred. Of the entire clutch of hets
Sandfire Ranch bought, they (or their Representative breeders) bred 1/2 to
their Sandfire line and 1/2 to their Hypo line in 2002-2003, then in
2003/2004 they bred those hets back to each other for the first pairing of
het to het. So any offspring from either group had the same grandparents
and the parents of both groups were siblings. There has not been enough time
for there to be translucent being sold that are not a result in inbreeding.
Inbreeding is defined as breeding two related species with the 5th degree of
relationship

Paul Morlock who was the East coast breeder for Sandfire Ranch and Josh who
was the West Coast breeder for them both stated that the offspring that
showed the trait, were weaker than the hets, some did not survive, some were
put down by the breeders, its called culling and the first time I heard this
in relationship to bearded dragons was when I was told they were having to
cull the babies that were hatching from the crossings by one of the main
breeder of them as they were too weak, they would not give them away as they
were afraid people would still try and breed them, affecting the price that
they could get forthe hets that appeared healthy..... that stinks I think,
but its a fact.

Cull: to reduce or control the size of (as a herd) by removal (as by
hunting) of especially weaker animals; also : to hunt or kill (animals) as a
means of population control

Now you have some breeders that are only breeding the trans to make hets, so
they will not have trans for sale as you can not produce them from a non het
paring, but you can make a percentage of the clutches be het that way... and
healthy. I know one is Randy from AlphaDragonZ and to the best of my
knowledge he has not crossed and trans to trans. and is only making hets to
strengthen the gene pool and he has some healthy nice ones already.

If someone told you that there are trans for sale that are not inbreed, then
either they are not being truthful or they do not know that they are all
from the same parent dragons a few generations back, the dragons from
England.... as that is the only place they came from.... if someone imported
one to the US and then breed it to a Sandfire line dragon, they are still
related. I can see that happening and know that it has as I know a breeder
that made the same mistake and did not know there were related, they were
told they were not. There is now DNA testing available that does not cost
that much and I suggest that nyone thinking of breeding these, that does not
want to believe me, have that done, I know of two people that have and
surprise...... the dragons were related.... very closely related. There has
not been the time, even if bred when they are underage, (which many have
also) to have produced unrelated hets past the 5th generation to not be
inbreeding

That is not saying that all breeder selling trans are purposely inbreeding
them, they may very well not know they are as what happened to a breeder in
Florida and PA, they were told that the lines they bought were not related,
DNA testing showed there were........ VERY close. If someone can show you
proof that dragons are not related withinhe inbreeding degrees, I would love
to see it, as it is impossible for the known history of them that is only 5
years old as it is.

I did not post this to upset anyone, but so people know what they are
breeding and buying, with the limited geen pool of bearded dragons, it is
vital that inbreeding be avoided or if there is the possibility that someone
is inbreeding and not knowing t, they be made aware of it and given the
opportunity to verify it. I am sure than some people will take this
personally that own, are breeding or plan on breeding these, but that is not
my intent and I am sorry if it upsets someon, or that they are in a position
it might upset them

CheriS
www.reptilerooms.com

http://www.mombu.com/reptiles/reptil...1491-last.html

Yes, much better. Thanks.

Thank you very much for this post !!!
Well done

Originally Posted by Bearded Ambitions

Thank you very much for this post !!!
Well done

Hey you produce llts of cool trans and stuff what do you think?

I have only bred a trans to a trans 1 time before i was told the health would be unstable.
I bred a het hypo trans from Phantom dragons with a Trans from Bloodbank
and i only had 1 babie live out of 28 eggs.
All but 4 hatched and most didn't last past the first week.
However 1 babie did survive and it was not a visual trans ?
The babies that died were all trans to some degree even 1-2 were so amazingly clear i was so excited only to have them die.
This to me is not Proof that is cannot be done, as th long post says though the chances that my 2 trans were prob verrrryyy close in relation as this was back 3yrs ago i believe.
I got both dragons from Lair of dragons.
Hope this may shed some light.
That is the only i have crossed anything to tranz, is trans.
After i had that prob i sold both of my tranz and have been hard debating ither trying again or getting a het tranz as i have a male het tranz so it would be cool to produce some from hets to see if healthier.

Okay,

I re-read this a few times to try to put it together.

Originally Posted by Bearded Ambitions

I have only bred a trans to a trans 1 time before..

Really?!?! So what was the outcome? please elaborate.

Originally Posted by Bearded Ambitions

I bred a het hypo trans from Phantom dragons with a Trans from Bloodbank and i only had 1 babie live out of 28 eggs...

Well you bred two animals from pretty much the same guy. steven breeds and re-sells from josh's stock. So i doubt it was the trans gene the caused the problem. I dont think it was a inbreeding problem either. Not if you lost all but one. Maybe a incubation problem.

Originally Posted by Bearded Ambitions

The babies that died were all trans to some degree even 1-2 were so amazingly clear i was so excited only to have them die...

The ones that were real clear probly would have been the ones to remain clear.(Translucents) the others probly would have faded to normals within two and a weeks.

Originally Posted by Bearded Ambitions

This to me is not Proof that is cannot be done...

Matt, its not that it cannot be done, it should NOT be done. Lets look at this.
Why do you inbreed dragons? To find out if there genetic traits are recessive or co-dom. In a case of theRecessivegene you have to inbreed to see if it comes out to reproduce the same or if there is a super form. (example of "super form" would be a co-dom trait) ( a example of a co-dom trait would be leatherbacks. and there "super" form is Silkbacks.
SO, it has been proven that the trans gene is recessive. And by breeders who have breed them, can tell you that the trans gene is NOT a strong gene. Translucents are NOT hypos. Hypos have been outcrossed enough to where there isnt a genetic problem with them. even if you cross hypo to hypo. This is not the same way with translucents. Even though the translucent gene has been crossed out quite a few times over, there is STILL a genetic problem with this gene. And to be honest, I think it may take twice as long to boost the translucent gene then what the hypo gene took. I was not around for the hypos being crossed out to make them a healthy cross. BUT I doubt its as bad as the trans gene. The translucents ARE getting better, but It's still going to take time.

Originally Posted by Bearded Ambitions

This to me is not Proof that is cannot be done....

This statement is what separates you from the breeders. inexperiences, and that kind of ignorance to your hobby, makes others frown upon what we try to do. There is no need to do this unless your trying to prove something out. An it has already been done. So, why do it? Instead of trying to help a weak gene, you only make it worse. I been breeding the trans gene for two almost three years. I HAVE NOT ONCE crossed a Translucent to Translucent. nor a hypo trans to hypo trans. I know what happens when you breed a weak line (translucent)to a strong line (not translucent) And some of the babies that hatched only brought me sadness and almost to tears thinking what a waste.
I do NOT even want to think of a trans to trans!

Originally Posted by Bearded Ambitions

After i had that prob i sold both of my tranz and have been hard debating ither trying again or getting a het tranz as i have a male het tranz so it would be cool to produce some from hets to see if healthier.

You sold them because you ruined it for yourself. Thats what happened. I have seen some of the most beautiful dragons have the trans gene visible. And its a beautiful morph, But its not to be tampered with.
Heads up Matt, you can have less, the same amount, or more problems with even "het translucent". It depends if that particular trans has issues with its genetic trait. I.E. some trans produce beautiful healthy dragons and some trans have 30-40% problems in there bloodline and it shows when its reproduced. If you have a het trans from a weak line. it will show in its babies. if you have a trans from a healthy line it will also show in the babies.

Matt,
dont take the previous to heart. You know how i feel about you. But the trans gene is not strong enough to cross. so why cross it? do you want to see the weak unhealthy dragons? do you want to see some of the complications from this pairing? Putting a baby dragon in the freezer after it hatches is not what i like doing. Or hear about others doing! Your not doing it for research, or going to learn something someone else doesnt know from the pairing. So why do it?