Chris DeLay Stellar Constrictors sick lemon pastel

I have never initiated a thread here or pasted information from other applications, e-mails, etc. so please have some patience with me if things don’t go to smoothly here. I’ve tried posting images, but had problems because my computer automatically saves all images as extensions of my image processing software and this website doesn’t recognize them as jpeg even though they are, so please bear with me as I work through this process.
I purchased a stunningly colored and patterned hatchling from Chris DeLay of Stellar Constrictors less than 2 weeks ago (received 7/19). The animal was very thin and weak upon receipt only weighing 35g (my digital scale has 2g resolution and would measure 34 or 36g I have stated 36g in some instances, 35g in others). It was also received at a body temperature measuring 61.8 (sometimes I state 61, sometimes 62) degrees at the airport due to close proximity of ice packs to the snake in the shipping box. I removed the ice packs at the airport and brought the snake home. I sent Mr. DeLay an e-mail that evening including photos that document the temperature of the animal at the airport and how thin it was. I also indicated that at 35g this was the smallest and thinnest BP I had ever seen. No, I did not specifically inquire the weight of the animal prior to purchase, but I believe a reputable seller should be very up-front about something as significant as the animal being approximately half the weight expected for an animal of this type. I will paste all of our e-mails in following posts. They will tell the story very accurately and unbiased. I was very optimistic, cooperative, and non-confrontational in early e-mail exchanges. I did what you are supposed to do with a new BP…I left it alone. I only disturbed it to introduce fuzzy mice on 2 evenings that week, then remove them the following mornings. It had been in a “juvie” sized tub (thermal gradient approx 83 to 90 deg with hides at each end) that I normally move my 4-6 week olds into after spending their first weeks in a more humid “shoe box”. Saturday 7/24 I decided to move it to the shoe-box size per Mr. DeLay’s recommendation and I used cypress mulch to up the humidity. This is when I discovered what poor condition the animal was truly in. Its head was wavering back and forth and it would fall over when it tried to raise its head more than 4 inches or so. My digital camera is capable of recording a 16 second movie clip so I took 2 clips of it moving and e-mailed them to Mr. DeLay. I believed the animal was going beyond the point of no return and did not believe it was dehydrated because I observed it drinking the night I received it and it had picked up a few grams in water weight so I assist fed it a fuzzy mouse. Mr. DeLay denies all responsibility for the health of the animal and refuses to accept return for refund. It may have been unsteady in its movement upon receipt, but I didn’t specifically note that and would have associated it with the stress of shipping an already weak animal. I will close this post and try to post the images I sent to Mr. DeLay the evening I received the snake. After posting the images, I will provide a complete veterinary report including the professional accolades of the veterinarian treating this snake. The veterinary exam revealed the underlying cause of the obvious malnutrition is central nervous system disorder, and that the animal is male and was sold as a female, thus I filed a claim with Paypal of consumer fraud. I will post all of our e-mail exchanges, and maybe later, contents and replies of a poll I posted on KS last week regarding this animal. Please be patient if you are reading this on Saturday. It may take awhile for me to get these up. Thank you.
Paul Fisher

The snake reacted to the disturbance by puffing itself up so does not appear thin in this limited view. (I hope this image comes up)

This image was taken when the snake was removed from the shipping container at home. This was sent to Mr. DeLay in an e-mail the night I received the snake. All e-mails well be posted as well.

This image was also included in my e-mail to Mr. DeLay the night I received the snake.

What were the terms/conditions of this deal? Was there any guarantee stated? How long if so? Was the sex guaranteed? If so, then the animal should be replaced if for no other reason than that. Now if you bought this animal w/o any guarantee(s) in place, i.e. "live arrival only," then sadly, you are out of luck. But, I would hope both parties would have addressed these issues before such a high-end animal transaction took place.

Dr. Richard Funk: Bachelor of Science, with Distinction, in Zoology; Master of Arts in Zoology with thesis on herpetology; Doctorate of Veterinary Medicine. He has published extensively and lectures nationwide on exotic animal topics, particularly reptiles (I have noticed his works cited in my copy of “Understanding Reptile Parasites”). He is an active member of Association of Reptile and Amphibian Veterinarians, serving as: Secretary/Treasurer, President, member of editorial board, and program chairperson for the annual convention.
He is NOT just some vet who is willing to look at a snake!

During the exam, Dr. Funk sexed this “female” lemon pastel that I paid market price of $2,500 due to its outstanding color and pattern as a MALE! I watched him probe 6 scales deep on one side, then 8 on the other…back to first side 6 again, then 8 again on the other side. I was a little surprised at the gauge of the probe he was using, larger than I expected for such a small snake. Him: VERY experienced. Me: NOT very experienced. Due to the size of the probe being used and identical results upon repeat probing I am confident the probe was not entering the duct in the back of the female gland or rupturing through it. This animal is a MALE! Dr. Funk also mentioned sexing 2 other male pastel hatchlings last week for another client that were purchased as males with the same result of 8 scales deep. Here is the medical release:

“Your pet is being released from our hospital after medical/surgical care for NEUROLOGICAL PROBLEMS.

HOME TREATMENT
Isolate from other snakes for several months

FOOD AND WATER
Normal: May need assist-feeding as you’ve already done

RETURN TO HOSPITAL
If not improving

MEDICATION PRESCRIBED OR DISPENSED
Baytril (antibiotic) and Flagyl (kills anaerobic bacteria and some protozoan parasites)

COMMENTS
This beautiful snake is very thin and weak and seems to have a neurological disorder, with head and forebody swaying when extended or crawling. Snakes with “IBD” can show similar symptoms but this can be difficult to diagnose, as we’ve discussed, and if so can be infectious to other pythons and boas. In case this condition is caused by a bacterial or protozoal infection, we are hoping the Baytril and Flagyl will be helpful. Some snakes with IBD get progressively and slowly worse, and some will get to a level of disability and maintain at that level. There is no known treatment for IBD, and the best way to diagnose it is by sending the body in for a pathology examination at necropsy. I examined some urine expressed from the snake without seeing any protozoans in this sample.”

Live guarantee, proper sexing, etc were discussed on the phone prior to Paypal transaction, another opportunity I missed to ask him the weight of the animal but didn't really consider it because he stated the animal was feeding well for him. You will see more when I post the e-mails. The Paypal transaction clearly states the purchase is for a female lemon pastel ball python. This is the basis of my claim through Paypal.

I don't know if there is a limit to the size of a post, so I'll break them up into a few posts just in case.
Paul

Subject: Female lemon pastel
Date: 7/14/2004 7:03:56 PM US Mountain Standard Time
From: Pasufisher
Reply To:
To: CaptiveBrd

Chris,
I almost messed up big-time! My first attempt to do the Paypal timed out because I was a little slow, haven't used it for awhile. So I tried again and typed faster. After I spoke to you I checked my e-mail and saw the receipt to captivebred@aol.com. I was able to cancel that payment and re-do it for captivebrd@aol.com. Anyway, please reply to verify you received the payment and everything is in order. You have my address on the Paypal payment. My phone is:
Home *******
Work ********
Let me know what you find out about shipping to our wonderfully warm climate. Thanks Chris.
Sincerely,
Paul Fisher


Subject: Lemon pastel
Date: 7/14/2004 7:29:26 PM US Mountain Standard Time
From: Pasufisher
Reply To:
To: CaptiveBrd

Chris,
If you get the chance, I'd like to get a picture of your male that produced this lemon pastel. My other Lemon is from Logan Enterprises and I have a picture of the sire, he's kept his yellow very well at over 3 yrs of age. Thanks Chris.
Sincerely,
Paul Fisher


Subject: Lemon pastel female
Date: 7/14/2004 11:20:44 PM US Mountain Standard Time
From: Pasufisher
Reply To:
To: CaptiveBrd

Chris,
Are you quite confident that this is a NERD line Lemon Pastel? My 2003 NERD Lemon Pastel does show the faded head typical of most pastels. The animal you have advertised shows Lemon Pastel yellow, but if I recall, it has "classic jungle" head pattern and labials. You pulled the ad so fast, I haven't been able to review the photos. Does it also have the "classic jungle black mustache" or the white lips typical of pastels? Classic jungles can occur sporadically in any breeding project and can be striking individuals, the problem is that they do not hold their yellow color as they mature and they do not carry the co-dom pastel gene. In fact, their genetics is considered random and most breeders are no longer trying to prove the trait. I just want us to be clear on this up front. I don't want to spend $2,500 for a beautiful classic jungle. On the other hand, I will be thrilled to purchase an outstanding NERD line Lemon Pastel. Sorry for the tone of distrust in this message, it's just that without having photos to refer to, I'm having second thoughts and can't re-assure myself by reviewing the pictures! Thank you Chris.
Sincerely,
Paul Fisher


Subject: Re: Lemon pastel female
Date: 7/15/2004 6:11:33 AM US Mountain Standard Time
From: CaptiveBrd
Reply To:
To: Pasufisher

Paul,

Yes, I am very sure. The female pastel was produced from a NERD lemon line pastel male bred to a normal female. She does have a bit of black on her top lip, but doesn't have the faded head of a classic. As far as head patterns go I have produced Burmese, Balls, and rat snakes with several different head patterns. My partner (SNReptiles) and I are very confident she is a pastel. I have sent pictures of her to several ball python breeders whose exact words were "that's one of the nicest pastels I have seen." The last person I sent it to was Bob Clark and he said it's a nice pastel.

I am positive this female is a pastel. If you breed her and don't produce any pastels I will refund your money. If you're not confident in my company you can check all the reptile BOI's. I have NEVER had a negative complaint in the 10+ years I have been selling snakes. I have several references if you need them.

I have attached the photos from the ad and one of her father. Thanks.

Sincerely,
Chris DeLay
Stellar Constrictors


Subject: Re: Lemon pastel female
Date: 7/15/2004 8:36:07 AM US Mountain Standard Time
From: Pasufisher
Reply To:
To: CaptiveBrd

Chris,
Thank you for your assurrance that she is a NERD Lemon line pastel. I can't help but to compare here to the striking "classic jungle" on the cover of the Ball Python Manual. As I understand from the "Snake Keepers" web site, that animal never proved out and the Sutherland's are no longer pursuing the project. I appreciate your willingness and confidence to stand behind her genetics. I don't need referrences. I believe you are being honest. I just wanted verify the sire is NERD Lemon pastel and for you reconsider the possibility that she's a stunning "classic". Since you've already pursued that, even through big-name breeders, please continue with the transaction. If none of her first 10 hatchlings are pastels, I would return her and ask for a refund. I sure hope we're both still doing this stuff in 2008! Thanks again Chris. Let me know what you find out about shipping her to Phoenix.
Sincerely,
Paul Fisher


Subject: Re: Lemon pastel female
Date: 7/15/2004 1:30:41 PM US Mountain Standard Time
From: CaptiveBrd
Reply To:
To: Pasufisher

Paul,

That sounds great. I'll contact NWA today and see what they can do about getting her to Phoenix. Thanks.

Sincerely,
Chris DeLay
Stellar Constrictors


In a message dated 7/19/2004 5:38:34 AM US Mountain Standard Time, CaptiveBrd writes:

Paul,

I dropped the pastel female off at 6AM this morning. She is due to arrive at your airport at 5:30PM. US Airways is the airline and she will be located at the cargo pick up area. I put her is a fairly large box and packed two large ice packs in with her to be safe.

I record my feeding logs on my computer so I printed off the pastel's for you. She is due to eat any day now; her last meal was a small hopper on Tuesday.

The airbill number is 037-18083435. The US Airways website is www.usairwayscargo.com. The phone number I have is 888-736-3738. Please advise when you receive the animal. Thank you!

Sincerely,
Chris DeLay
Stellar Constrictors

Subject: Re: Pastel Shipped
Date: 7/19/2004 10:30:26 PM US Mountain Standard Time
From: Pasufisher
Reply To:
To: CaptiveBrd

Chris,
Actually, cargo sent us to pick her up at baggage claim, said it would take over an hour for them to get her to cargo, most of it outdoors at 110 in-the-shade. I told them we would be opening the package to photograph the animal for shipping insurance requirements, they said OK. 5 minutes after we got to baggage claim, the box arrived and there were no costomers in the tiny office. By the time I got the box open, and both bags untied, there were about 7 customers crammed in there. I took the temp and picture and nobody freaked out, mostly curious. Just lucky I guess. As you can see from the pics she arrived at about 62 deg body temp. This is absolutely the smallest and thinnest BP I have ever seen. Only 36 grams out of the shipping bag! I'll leave a 3-day old rat with her for about an hour, see if I get lucky. Otherwise, I'll bring home a live fuzzy mouse for her tomorrow. Here are some pics.
Sincerely,
Paul Fisher

At the airport immediately upon delivery.

(Image showing temperature reading)

Out of the shipping bag at home. Sure is thin!

(2 Images showing very thin conditions)


Subject: Re: Pastel Shipped
Date: 7/19/2004 11:35:55 PM US Mountain Standard Time
From: CaptiveBrd
Reply To:
To: Pasufisher
Paul,

I am very very sorry she was that cool. I didn't think the box temp would get near that cold! Especially going to Phoenix. Even the temperature here was toasty. I couldn't find any other airlines to ship because of the extreme temperature. Taking that into consideration I packed in two ice packs. I guess I overcompensated on the ice. Once again, I greatly apologize.

As far as her size goes, the eggs from her clutch were TINY. Actually the smallest babies I've hatched to date. The hatchlings ranged from 26-32 grams. She was 27 grams out of the egg. Below is a shot of the tiny eggs. They have all fed on live fuzzie and hopper mice at this time. She may take a rat pup; I haven't offered them any rats yet.

(picture of snake poking its head out of egg, nothing in picture for relative size comparison)

Sincerely,
Chris DeLay
Stellar Constrictors


Subject: Re: Pastel Shipped
Date: 7/20/2004 1:25:23 PM US Mountain Standard Time
From: CaptiveBrd
Reply To:
To: Pasufisher

In a message dated 7/20/04 10:32:39 AM Central Daylight Time, Pasufisher writes:

Wow Chris! How do you even sex them that small? How big was the female that layed those eggs? I'll bring home a fuzzy or hopper mouse this evening to try.
Sincerely,
Paul Fisher

Paul,

I am still able to pop them that small. I can pop corn snakes right out of the egg. Actually the female (mother to your female) was around 1,500 grams. Three years ago she laid 11 small eggs. This year she laid 6 TINY eggs. I had a 1,184 gram female lay 3 eggs this year that were twice as heavy as the 6 tiny ones. I'm not sure why she lays the small eggs, but they are dramatically smaller than average size and weight.

Sincerely,
Chris DeLay
Stellar Constrictors


In a message dated 7/21/04 11:03:18 AM Central Daylight Time, Pasufisher writes:

Hi Chris,
Normally I keep my hatchlings in shoe-box size Sterlites on slightly damp cypress mulch for the first 4-6 wks, then move them to 12qt. size on newspaper until they get around 500g. Since this animal has been feeding for 4 wks, I put her in the 12 qt. juvie Sterlite on newspaper. There are hides at 90deg and 83deg and several nooks between the hides/water dish/sides, on top of the hides, etc. I left 2 fuzzy mice in with her overnight, one roaming the cage and one contained in the warm hide (entry hole is about 1.5" from the bottom). She did not feed. How were you maintaining this animal? Do you think I should try to duplicate your set-up or just give her more time to settle in and try feeding again this weekend? I checked her temp when adding/removing the mice, she's keeping herself at 84-85 deg. Otherwise, I have not disturbed her. I'm worried because she looks so thin. I don't have experience with such a tiny hatchling. My breeding female produces eggs over 100g and fat hatchlings around 80g. Thanks Chris.
Sincerely,
Paul Fisher

Subject: Re: Pastel enclosure questions...didn't feed
Date: 7/21/2004 9:49:12 AM US Mountain Standard Time
From: CaptiveBrd
Reply To:
To: Pasufisher

Paul,

Her setup was a Rubbermaid shoe box with blue shop towels as substrate. The heat tape hot spot on the rack is 91. I feed the smaller hatchlings in deli cups with lids sometimes. I place the prey item in the cup with the snake, put the lid on the cup, and then put the cup inside the tub on the rack. I wouldn't worry about duplicating my setup exactly, but you may want to keep her in a smaller cage. I have always had babies feed better that were housed in smaller caging. I wouldn't worry about trying every day. I would try every other day or so until she get settled in. She was eating well here. Below is a pic of my baby rack.

(probably the wrong picture, close-up of a couple of baby retics in a shoe-box)

Sincerely,
Chris DeLay
Stellar Constrictors


Subject: (no subject)
Date: 7/21/2004 2:19:30 PM US Mountain Standard Time
From: CaptiveBrd
Reply To:
To: Pasufisher

Paul,

This is a shot of one of my hatchling racks. Simple, with disposable plastic deli cups for water bowls and thick shop towels for substrate.

(picture of a shoebox rack set-up)

Thanks,
Chris

Sorry Brian but I completely disagree. I've had this argument with people before. Just because you don't ask every possible question doesn't mean a seller should have the right to unload a sick animal on you. I guess if Paul didn't ask if the animal had IBD then it would be ok to send him an animal with IBD?? Of course the obvious questions should be gone over but if he was told it was a healthy animal that was feeding well why would he inquire about its weight? Weight isn't an issue with a healthy animal.

It's the sellers job and responsibility to make the buyer aware of any and all problems with the animal. That poor pastel looks like it is on deaths door. I feel terrible for the animal and just as bad for Paul. Any decent person would not send out an animal in that condition. I am absolutely stunned that a known breeder would sell an animal looking that bad.

Best of luck getting your money back Paul. Keep that thing away from your other animals, you never know what it may have.