Andrew Hermes of Arizona Tortoise Compound

Well, I've read all this and it won't stop me from doing business with ATC, I think all the good outweighs this. ATC obviously made efforts to compensate for the loss by offering money back and future hatchlings for LIFE. Which if you read the OP said they did not want to do that even though they could make the money back. It may not be what they wanted but its compensation for which the money would have been made back. I don't see the "radiated breeder" wanting compensation for the tortoise the OP gave and it strangely died after a week. And I have yet to see any emails posted from either side. Yes its ATC responsibly to fix the situation the best it can based on its terms, the deal was brokered through 3rd party (supposedly) and even though the OP claims they didn't know, I still want to see emails from ATC or the OP proving what was said and what wasn't. The OP I see has been asked several times to post emails and yet no one does.

And with getting free hatchlings the OP will make well over 3k... They should have just accepted the offer, it was a good deal. I think the OP is really just out of line. It was unfortunate what happened. But I'd gladly take store credit for life knowing I'll come out way ahead in the long run...

He never said free hatchlings. He said animals at cost. The buyer would have to buy thousands of dollars of animals to ever get the 3200 back. That's not a just solution. This will be in small claims, with no lawyers, and it will have to be in Arizona. ATC will lose despite their TOS. This is like the "waiver" people sign before doing something risky like bungee jumping. Several people have gotten hurt or killed and won lawsuits in court despite having actually physically signed the paper. He isn't taking responsibility because he just doesn't want to be out 3200. He probably doesn't have it, but that's too bad. He shouldn't be in business then.

Originally Posted by Arizona Tortoise Compound

As to everyone that is telling me to make it right. I offered Erik money and tortoises for life at cost!!! At cost means if I hatch them then it would be free.
Andrew Hermes
Arizona Tortoise Compound

Pretty sure thats what he says.. and Im pretty sure that Free means free

And I don't see the "radiated breeder" complaining, he is out money also. And the fact the OP was unwilling to try to get the animal sooner also puts some blame on him. Regardless of work you should make the necessary arraignments to pick the animal up, if you can't then either wait til you can be there or find someone. I am not saying there is no fault on ATC end if any of what was said is true. Fact remains the dude is offered free tortoises to make up for the money and is still not satisfied. ATC shouldn't get a bad rep because someone is unwilling to go another route. You don't always get your money back for things you take to the store. They give you store credit, which was offered for LIFE to the OP!!! I really don't see the problem, other than someone wanting to give someone a bad rep

Originally Posted by allesuberschildkroten

And I don't see the "radiated breeder" complaining, he is out money also. And the fact the OP was unwilling to try to get the animal sooner also puts some blame on him. Regardless of work you should make the necessary arraignments to pick the animal up, if you can't then either wait til you can be there or find someone. I am not saying there is no fault on ATC end if any of what was said is true. Fact remains the dude is offered free tortoises to make up for the money and is still not satisfied. ATC shouldn't get a bad rep because someone is unwilling to go another route. You don't always get your money back for things you take to the store. They give you store credit, which was offered for LIFE to the OP!!! I really don't see the problem, other than someone wanting to give someone a bad rep

My eyes skipped over the free for life sentence for some reason. My bad! I'm not sure, though, why you're so quick to suspect the OP is lying, but take the fact that ATC said the female died a week after receipt at face value. The fact of when the OP picked up the tortoise is a moot point. The animal had been in a sealed plastic bag since at least the evening before, if not longer. It would have been just as dead at 10 am as later in the day. Is the free hatchlings a just solution? I'm not so sure. The dead tortoise was an adult male. If the OP had adult females he was counting on breeding him to, he will be out a lot of money by waiting for a hatchling to get up to breeding size. They are not Ball pythons that take less than a year to breeding size. It takes several years. Is there even any guarantee that ATC is willing to give Radiated hatchlings? If he's only willing to give up lower end hatchlings like Russians, that's a lot of hatchlings (that the OP may not be interested in anyway) to make up 3200. Your analogy of taking something back to the store for store credit makes no sense. If I get a TV that doesn't work, I can at least get the same TV when I take it back.

Never said the OP was lying, I think they just got carried away and are not satisfied with the solution presented to them. I can only say that things in life don't always go the way we want them to when something goes wrong. Ehh my analogy: might not work in this instance, but depending the stores policy, you may not get what you want. And you do not know why he wanted a male, you dont know he was breeding. OP has been absent for several pages not saying anything. Compensation was offered and he rejected, not much more can be done. He isn't going to get a full refund and we all understand that. And you're right there is no guarantee that ATC would uphold the offer, but its in writing on this forum for the world to see. And if he didn't it sure would come back to bite him one day. Im just giving my thoughts, and that this isn't really stopping me from buying in the future from ATC. I don't see any issue with the solution presented based on what the OP said vs ATC. Everyone else is obviously seeing a huge issue I don't see. I would be just as upset as the OP if my tort died during shipping, still doesn't change I'd accept what I was given in exchange. I can only say that for myself if the situation happened to me at this point in time. I may feel different under other circumstances. But just based on what both parties wrote, I don't see a problem

"The tortoise Mr. Hermes sent me arrived on Wednesday March 20th at 5 pm, DEAD. The tortoise arrived in an unvented box, which upon opening, contained another unvented box with the bottom broken out. This inner box was IN A TIED CLOSED PLASTIC BAG."

This suggests the tortoise died in shipping probably because of how it was boxed. The bottom was broken out. The tortoise had to have spilled out. Do you really think someone would knowingly put a live tortoise in a sealed plastic bag? It was put in a sealed plastic bag BECAUSE it was dead. Achems's Razor- the simplest explaination.

And what he offered is now moot, also, because ATC has decided now they won't take responsibility.

"Nothing other than was already offerred then retracted."

The above from the OP.

Originally Posted by Dennis Hultman

I agree with everything in your post minus this point.


It was never a standard to put ventilation holes in the shipping boxes for reptiles. There are many threads here that discuss why people do and don't.

When I first starting shipping about ten years ago I looked to those who have been doing this for years. Those that had twenty years in this business.

I have never put a single ventilation hole in a package. I have yet to have a DOA (knock on wood) and pray I never do. I have shipped and received hundreds of packages without incident.

The whole ventilation stuff started when now a defunct shipping company put forth a video on how to package live reptiles. It was done by one breeder who stated it was necessary. When more and more of the general hobbyist (not breeders) started shipping they looked to that video for guidance and now all of sudden you have people stating that it is a must.

It's garbage and factually not true. Go and look at any shipping thread dating back more than five years and you will not find people ventilating boxes in their tutorial.

I don't do it but also don't seal the box up like fort Knox with tape.

He says otherwise about the shipping, I'm not going to argue about that. Just that some people wouldn't agree, and I dont either. Anytime I have received a tort or turt there were no vent holes and they were fine (for me personally).

Originally Posted by Dennis Hultman

I agree with everything in your post minus this point.


It was never a standard to put ventilation holes in the shipping boxes for reptiles. There are many threads here that discuss why people do and don't.

When I first starting shipping about ten years ago I looked to those who have been doing this for years. Those that had twenty years in this business.

I have never put a single ventilation hole in a package. I have yet to have a DOA (knock on wood) and pray I never do. I have shipped and received hundreds of packages without incident.

The whole ventilation stuff started when now a defunct shipping company put forth a video on how to package live reptiles. It was done by one breeder who stated it was necessary. When more and more of the general hobbyist (not breeders) started shipping they looked to that video for guidance and now all of sudden you have people stating that it is a must.

It's garbage and factually not true. Go and look at any shipping thread dating back more than five years and you will not find people ventilating boxes in their tutorial.

I don't do it but also don't seal the box up like fort Knox with tape.

He says otherwise about the shipping, I'm not going to argue about that. Just that some people wouldn't agree, and I dont either. Anytime I have received a tort or turt there were no vent holes and they were fine (for me personally).