Jeff Barringer @ kingsnake.com--Class A Jerk

Yesterday in the Leopard Gecko forum at kingsnake.com, I posted a reply to an individual who stated he was looking for a certain leo morph, and that he had tried to post a classified there, but that it kept trying to charge him 50 bucks.

I replied a n/p line something along the lines of "Welcome to kingsnake.com: No pay $$$ = No post classifieds".

Then this person replied, "Oh, I wasn't complaining, I just can't find my gecko."

I replied with a subject line "No, no, I was totally on your side--KS is making a killing! (more)". spam_In the body of the post I said something like "First off, just in order to have a small, miniscule little link to your site listed on the kingsnake homepage, costs $15 in front page hosting from them per month! spam_And classifieds posting access costs over $50/year!" spam_Then I added a follow-up to my post, which said, "BTW, try faunaclassifieds.com for FREE classifieds."

The reason why I cannot tell you exactly what was posted is because Jeff, the webmaster of all the kingsnake.com affiliate sites, deleted the entire thread, which I noticed after he sent me an e-mail:

*****
Jeff to Joshua
Subject: Nice

First off, just in order to have a small, miniscule little link to your site listed on the kingsnake homepage, costs $15 in front page hosting from them per month!

And classifieds posting access costs over $50/year!

*****
I replied

Joshua to Jeff
Subject: Re: Nice

Ah, nice, yourself. spam_You seem to have removed that post, which, to my knowledge, contained nothing offensive. spam_You also seem to have removed other posts of mine which relate nothing to the excerpt which you e-mailed me. spam_It appears to me that you are operating under some sort of Stalinist philosophy, am I right?

Ya Vac pozdravlyayu, tovarish' Stalin!

--Joshua

*****

(I think the Russian really pissed him off) He replied

Jeff to Joshua
Subject: Re: Nice

Tell ya what bud....

You come to my website, use our resources, bad mouth our site then refer someone to our competitor, you can go spend your time elsewhere....

*****

At this point, I had been trying to post something in the Mice Forum on his critterhobbyist.com site, and when I added my link to the post and tried to submit, I got this lovely message:

We Are Sorry...
We are sorry but we do not allow the URL (geckoparadise.com) to be posted to our message boards.
Please post your message again without the above website address.

Thank you

*****

I of course, immediately sent him an e-mail about this

Joshua to Jeff
Subject: Re: Nice

Thank you. spam_Thank you for blocking my domain www.geckoparadise.com from being posted anywhere on any of your sites. spam_Now that you have done so, without notice or explanation, I would like to request a formal written explanation of why you feel it was necessary to disallow the words "geckoparadise.com" on your sites.

Regards,

--Joshua Gray
www.geckoparadise.com

*****

Well, although the replies with the first couple of e-mails took place over the course of only several minutes, it has been nearly 24 hours since I sent this last e-mail to him, and I have yet to receive a reply.

Now, I understand that maybe I was not in the right to start this post in the first place, but his banning me from all the sites seems to me nothing but blatant Stalinism. spam_And he has not even offered me an explanation of why. spam_What about my actions was so horrible to warrant banning my domain? spam_What ever happened to free speech? spam_Jeff should rename his site Jeff's Authoritarian Land, and not kingsnake.com. spam_He should just realize that his site does not cater to everyone's needs, and that censoring people is not going to help anyone or any animals--only his greed.

Yes, I was referring someone there to his competition. spam_SO WHAT?! spam_I was only trying to help the guy find what he needed without his having to pay something around $54, just to post one freaking want classified.

It seems to me that if Jeff really cared about people and about reptiles, then he would want people to be able to find a resource that better fits their low-budget needs. spam_But instead, he sits on his wallet, deleting people who are trying to help other people find out what it is they need. spam_What a jacka**. spam_And what sort of insecurities must he be harboring to feel the need to go off on a power trip and start deleting people's threads and banning their domains just for having opinions.

I'd like to thank Rich so much for maintaining a non-elitist classifieds site that allows people of all financial situations to freely post wanted and for sale ads. spam_It fosters a more diverse trading forum, in my opinion. spam_(Not to mention it allows people to speak their minds rather than having to self-censor their opinions in order to avoid being deleted.)

--Joshua

Can't say that I feel for you, because you made a concientious decision to escalate the situation with your closing remark in the first email. Had you left the not-so-veiled insult off, I'm sure this would have had a different outcome.

I probably would have reacted the same if you came to my place of business, infer to everyone that my product is overpriced while referring them to a competing source, and then insult me. Let's turn this around for a moment. Say, for instance, that you had a table at Daytona this August. As potential customers walk by your table and stop to peruse your animals, someone standing there tells anyone who will listen that your animals are overpriced, and that the same quality can be found at xxxxx's table for a fraction of the cost.

Now, I know that was not your intent, but it is unfortunately how it was construed. There's nothing wrong with having an opinion on someone's prices or business practices, just bear in mind that how you express it matters just as much as what you express.

I'll have to agree with Ken on this one.......

While his analogy was accurate, apples and oranges.

This is the web world....Jeff OWNS Kingsnake.com.  It's not there for public purposes or to "bring the herp community together."  Those are secondary to the $$$ he makes.  That's the whole purpose for it, and whatever decisions he makes in hiw OWN playground are valid decisions......he could, if he wants, make it impossible to post ANY url's unless paid for in classified ads.  Being a member of the Tri-State Herpetological Society, I will never have any quams with Mr. Barringer.  He has given us FREE webhosting, and FREE circulation for banenr ads......

Now, I do like this site as well....heck, everything is free.  BUT, it's a totally different site......go to serpenco.com and try to lrefer somebody to Riches competitor in the forum.....I'm sure it would be gone in a flash.....this site is public service, serpenco.com is a private money oriented site.  I'm sure Jeff isn't looking to make enemies, but he has to look out for his own business interest.

Thanks

Certainly, Jeff "owns" kingsnake.com and obviously he can do what he wants there.  But his reaction to Joshua's mild online criticism smacks of insecurity and pettiness to me.  Not the kind of people i want to be associated with.  Guess I will be posting my herps for sale on the Faunaclassifieds in future...

It seems to me that if you believe in your "product" or service, and that it is not over-priced, then you should have no problem with people posting their dissident opinions. spam_On the contrary, if you really stand behind your services and prices, then maybe you should even welcome various opinions so that people will compare them, and then come back to you after seeing that yours indeed are the best. spam_But if you're so insecure about the prices of your service that when someone comments on them, you cut off their voice and exile them, then maybe that should be a clue to you that you need to think about your prices (and your business practices). spam_You obviously think that what the person is saying is true, or you wouldn't have such a problem with it.

But my argument is not even about his prices. spam_My argument revolved around the fact that Jeff had banned me from his sites. spam_And what for? spam_All I was saying was that he was making a killing on classifieds, and told a guy who wanted to post one solitary wanted ad to go to Fauna Classifieds. spam_I was not commenting on anyone's intelligence levels or on the quality of services offered (ie, "this kingsnake.com guy is stupid" or "this place sucks, everybody leave"). spam_So what are you referring to by my allegedly having insulted him? spam_If you mean drawing an analogy between him and Stalin--I'm sorry, but when you delete my post and do not even notify me, and furthermore, treat me discriminately me on a whim by refusing me a service provided to my other non-paying counterparts, you come off to me as a little big-headed.

But you are very right--Jeff is certainly free to do whatever he wants to with his sites. spam_He is free to allow or disallow whomever he wants, whenever he wants. spam_He truly is in the land of Jeff's iron fist. spam_But if he is going to operate a practice void of consistency and fairness, then I will have endless criticism for such a system and no desire to use it. spam_And he should provide a visible disclaimer that all material posted should coincide with the "business interests" of Jeff Barringer, whether or not they are in the better interests of herpers seeking the most helpful information, and that any posts of a nature contrary to the said "business interests" of Jeff Barringer will be deleted without notice, and with no trace that the post ever existed. spam_But this would make him look insecure, which of course, he isn't.

If he cannot even fulfill my request for an explanation, or act more professionally by not using what he takes as a personal insult and transferring it to my ability to use the resources of kingsnake.com with the same accessibility as everyone else, then I find much fault with his ability to conduct "business" in the first place. spam_And with that said, I will never give any of my money to him, and I will discourage others from doing it as well. spam_If money is what it takes to buy equal treatment at KS, then "bringing the herp community together" is indeed best left to be done somewhere else. spam_And I'm sorry for misconceiving (by your standards, Mr. Evans) that forums attempt to form community.

--Joshua

I will agree that forums do "build" community.  But the forums are there for extra entertainment, not the purpose of the site.  Just as with Riches serpenco site....it's not for doing business, it's for sharing informaiton, experiences and knowledge ACCORDING TO THE RULES.  I mean, look at the first page on Kingsnake.com and tell me it's not a business......look at the list of breeders and dealers alone....you think it's free to have your name posted there?  As far as an explaination of why you were banned, I DO think he should have at least told you first, then again, maybe he was just having a bad day and you really pushed him over the edge with the Stalin comment.  I'm sure if you apologized in a curteous fashion, he will reinstate your rights on the site.  Explain to him that it was a mistake, and that you didn't realize that Faunaclassifeds.com was competition.  It would be just like you telling somebody where to get a nice cornsnake from someone else on Riches forum.  Direct competition is all he's against.  The rules clearly state what to post and what not to post....perhapr he should include instructions on what to do if you're not sure.......Chances are it was actually pointed out to him by another user as well.  I'm not trying to argue with you at all.  I do agree that classifieds should be free, but I also uderstand Jeff's pint of view as well, that's his income, and you just took a little of it.  The classifieds are also a great way for breeders and dealers to reach the public (which is ATTRACTED BY THE FORUMS and such)  now with the small time person that just wants to unload a snake......sorry, but you'll have to find somewhere else.....

One good example that I'll point out.....Reptile shows...
I don't know of one show that will let people bring animals in to sell (I mean private individuals with 1 ball python they can't keep anymore)  YOU MUST BUY A TABLE.....I enforce this at our show and people STILL don't understand......By them bringing in an animal to sell, if I let them, I say two things....I don't care if you don't pay me for the privelage of being allowed to sell here, AND the other vendors are just foolish because they could've just done the same thing.  So with that comparison, Jeff is just running the worlds largest reptile show that costs $50 per table EVERY DAY for an entire year.....Heck, HAmburg costs $40 a day 4 times a year......sounds like Jeff is actually UNDER charging to me.........That is for the people that regularly have stuff to sell.  Now with Riches site, It's a place where people can come and sell for free, and talk to others.......And if Rich wanted to, he could charge for the privilage of using htis site.  HE has other forms of income.  If I remember correctly, he began this site due to being ripped off at one time.  He got sick of it and started the BOI.....then he added the classifieds (he had the room, fill it with something)  Jeff, on the other hand, decided to make it easier for people to locate the animals and supplies they needed.  Rather than going to the local petstore, Jeff brought them all to you.  He IS in this for money, and you inadvertantly refered him to his free competition......

Once again, I'm not saying you opinions are wrong, but they do not fall into the guidelines of Kingsnake.com.  

In fact, not too long ago (about 2 hours) I received an e-mail from a person with a kingsnake.com domain e-mail address.  It was to refer me to a new auction site.  I informed Jeff through e-mail that somebody was using an address on his domain to send spam to people advertising a new site that COULD be in competition with his.  I believe I was in the right.  I informed the man that somebody was using his service to promote his competition.  That's exactly what you did as well.  Then you upset him in some way.  He's not a bad guy, I've exchanged e-mails with him numorous times, and he seems like a typical businessman that is concerned about issues like this.  

Like I said earlier, E-mail him again, and explain that you didn't know you were doing anything wrong....BE CORDIAL.....you've already upset him, the last thing he wants is a Fidel Castro reference.  He WILL reinstate your posting privilages.  

Thanks

Joshua...Ya know, buddy...it never ceases to amaze me, that some people just can't FOLLOW THE RULES!! If you go to KS....there are about 3 pages of RULES!! Have you EVER read them?? It PLAINLY states what will happen if you BREAK those rules! KS is NOT a democracy! Jeff OWNS the ste and he can basically do ANYTHING HE WANTS TO DO! Personally...had you done that to ME, I would have kicked your butt off, too! Do you run stopsigns? Do you argue with cops? Do you park in handicapped spaces? NO!! (I would hope)....those are the rules! DON'T follow them, and see where it gets you! These analogies are right on the money! If you want to pick a fight with the King Bear....be prepared to get MAULED!! He'll win EVERY TIME!! ....Neil

Kingsnake.com is Jeff's business from which he makes a living. He protects it like it's a child and he has to. He's got employees to pay and pretty high expenses. If you're new to the hobby you may not know what he's done in the past years to protect our right to own herps. NRAC may not be breathing anymore, but it did help keep us afloat. He's a pioneer in the herp web world and while he may upset some people he still provides a very valuable resource for us the hobbyists. $50 is a high price to pay to post one ad, but if you're selling allot of stuff its nothing. Faunaclassifieds is great also and is exactly what many of us need. K-snake used to be free, but he needed to make a few bucks to keep it going. I'm not comming down on you. I just want everyone to realize that Jeff is trying to make a living. The forums are probably his largest pain in the butt. Ask him what happend to the tree boa forum. He got taken to court over it and we all paid the price for it by losing a forum and causing him to lay down some hard rules. I'm sure if you met him you would understand that he's not a comunist. He's a decent guy with a 24 hour a day job.

From th looks of the timeline of events that you posted, you were not "exiled" until after the the smart-@ss Russian remark. Had you not made that remark, and still been banned, then you'd have a legitimate gripe.

Like I said though, you made a concientious decision to escalate the situation, and are now reaping the results.

It has nothing to do with faith in one's product. If someone comes into my place of business, and then makes a smart-@ss remark after their faux pas is pointed out to them, they're out the door.

uh,seeing asthough you have a website i'm sure you know all about bandwidth and how expensive it is for extra,etc...now think about how many people use kingsnake...
it must cost them an arm and a leg to keep that site running?i would think so...so they would have to get money by banner exchanges(well,not exchanges,they dont pay you to have  a banner on your site.lol) and everything else.

now having said that i will have to say i wish it wasnt so expensive!
$50 someodd bucks to post an add,while i will say the adds would get seen alot i will have to say that, what if you just need to post one add in the time of a year,for one small animal or item that wouldnt even make $50 for the add seem handy...?

a year or two ago i practicly lived on kingsnake,chatting on the forums,etc but now i dont even look.i dont like them...
i use kingsnake to check ads and in the past year i have posted only on the gecko forum and only because i lost one of my house geckos(asian flat tail) and wanted to know if anyone knew where to ger more.

i understand they need money for there things,makes sense to me...i think $50 is a fine price if you will make use of it.

as for the banner and link pricing,i havent really looked but i do wish that non profit herp organisations could get a free link or even a deal...some of them are really handy like turtle homes,if they had a constant link on all the turtle related boards and things it would help people out alot(alot of people dunno anything about turtles but still keep them,etc).

wow,is it just me or did i ramble?

anyway!i love this place(fauna) and i'm glad kingsnake is around,alot of people use and need it.

-cassie schilliger