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Board of Inquiry® This forum is provided exclusively for the discussion of specific persons or businesses in the herp industry. YOUR FULL NAME is required for each message you post.

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Old 10-23-2002, 05:14 AM   #1
Christy's Critters
This is the first time that I have ever had to deal with this! Ok, I ordered a baby frilled dragon from a seller (I won't give their name at this time because I don't want this to be a bad mark against their name in case he decides to do the right thing). It arrived yesterday almost dead! He was wobbly, couldn't balance and looked terrible! The box and styro the little guy was shipped in had no air holes and there was a heat pack inside! Ok....I have been told by MANY people that heat packs burn up oxygen, and there were NO airholes in the box, sounds like the little guy suffered from lack of air to me! The deli cup was taped down to the bottom of the box, but there was no padding around the deli cup! I e-mailed the sellers and told them that he wasn't doing good, but of course they said he was healthy before they sent him. Well, the little guy died last night. I e-mailed these people and told them that he died and I have pictures to prove it. Now he is saying that he won't refund shipping and he also said that "most breeders don't refund shipping on D.O.A". I want the shipping back because I don't feel it is right to have to pay shipping on an animal that was poorly shipped in the first place! I don't want this to be a hassle or war but I don't intend to pay a high shipping fee when I didn't get what I paid for! Do you guys think they should refund shipping? Thanks for all input.

Christy Grayson
Old 10-23-2002, 07:49 AM   #2
I take it from your post they are willing to refund the cost of the animal? Was there padding in the deli cup? I've had animals shipped without padding in the cup quite a bit. If you've ever watched handlers throw these packages, you will understand the need to pad these little guys. Also where was the heat pack? to one side or directly under the animal,overheating him. What service was used? I would take the refund for the animal and count my blessings, cut your losses on the shipping and run.

Mike Conley
Old 10-23-2002, 08:52 AM   #3
Suncoast Herpetological

Bottom line, it comes down to what their fine print says.  If you ordered them from a web based company, they will generally have a Terms and Conditions page (or something of that sort) that defines what they warranty in various situations.  Most reputable dealers will cover all costs on a DOA.  However, a fair number do exempt themselves from shipping costs.  It is always a good idea to have a handle on these sort of things before making a purchase.  I always guarantee live healthy delivery and will not order from someone who does not do the same.
Old 10-23-2002, 10:43 AM   #4
Rob Hill/Geckos Anonymous
I think that the seller should refund the FULL amount you paid for the animal, including shipping.

You were not asking him/her to ship a half-dead Frilled Dragon were you?  You were not asking him/her to poorly package said dragon were you?  You paid for a LIVE HEALTHY frilled dragon as well as proper shipping methods so that it would arrive that way to you.  Since such was not the case, you should be entitled to a FULL refund of all charges incurred in the deal, not just the cost of the animal.

Best of luck!
Old 10-23-2002, 10:44 AM   #5
Unless it had been in the box for a few days, I doubt it had to do with lack of air--unless they taped every corner and crevice on that box--air usually has an easy time getting into the box area through the cardboard and the corners.  My guess is that there was either a temerature problem (too hot or too cold), or the animal was not doing well to begin with.  The wobbly balance thing could be a number of things including a preexisting condition like vitamin deficiency, stress, or someone did a real "bang up" job in the handling (shaking the box around for kicks), or the heat/cold thing.

The animal should certainly be refunded.  But, what other people said is true--different companies have different policies on shipping refunds--some do, some do not.  Be aware, that unless they shipped delta dash, they get absolutely no compensation for the loss of the animal and have to eat the cost of both the animal and the shipping.  So many companies will refund the animal, but not shipping.

I'm very sorry for you and the frilly.  Frilled dragons are so special, I hate thinking about that poor guy-- (ok, I'm psycho about the frilleds, I know, I know, lol).

Old 10-23-2002, 11:47 AM   #6
just a side note...I noticed that you posted on KS frilled forum--be very careful not to break the TOS--they've been very touchy about banning people lately--you are not supposed to say anything negative about any company--so, just be careful.
also, another note, is that a lot of people this time of year do not punch airholes in order to keep more heat in.
sorry again
Old 10-23-2002, 12:35 PM   #7
Christy's Critters
it looks like they are not going to refund the shipping costs and I really don't think it's fair that I have to lose on shipping because like Rob said, I didn't pay for a half dead frilled dragon. In the latest e-mail the person said "it was alive when it arrived and we guarantee live arrival", um, so because the animal was barely hanging onto life when it got here, I don't get shipping costs back??? Several people have seen the way this animal was shipped, and seen the dragon when I got him out of the box and alot of people are disgusted about it, but I guess there is nothing I can do. This animal was advertised on kingsnake, and nowhere did it say that buyer would be out shipping in the case of a D.O.A. Their web site states this, but like I said before, I didn't see this animal advertised on their site. The ad has been taken off of kingsnake, but it did say 100% healthy and live arrival guarantee, otherwise I would have never sent payment for it! The box was pretty well taped up, and no air holes. Dana, thanks for the heads up about kingsnake, I didn't list the dealers name so I don't think I broke any rules. I'm really heartbroken and angry at the same time about this, it's the first time I have been sent an animal that was almost dead! The little guy didn't even last 10 hours. I guess I will know for now on to ask people if they have any "hidden" policies I should know about.

Christy Grayson
Old 10-23-2002, 12:54 PM   #8
Rob Hill/Geckos Anonymous
Christy, would you mind telling us who the seller was on that Frilled Dragon so we can all be forewarned?
Old 10-23-2002, 02:25 PM   #9
Sad to hear about your loss. I have shipped dozens of baby frilleds out this year. I usually ship them in a box lined with one inch foam. Since most where shipped during summer I did not use heat packs, but going forward they will require them. I do not poke holes in the box because it is not needed. I ship UPS Red and every animal has made it to its destination in less than 24hours. It helps because I'm in California, so I have a time advantage to almost everywhere. Although frilleds may be a little sluggish we they first arrive with a little water and heat they should perk up. If you had bought a baby from me, I would have refunded everything to you. Baby frilleds are definatally more sensative to shipping and new environments, but with the right care usually are pretty easy. I recommend that next time you use this forum to find a good breeder. I would say to use kingsnake, but they banned me for telling someone how much I was selling my babies for.I would not buy from anybody who could not guarantee animals for at least a week. Hopefully you get all your money back, and please post your sellers name to warn other potential buyers. Also, besides Dana and myself I don't know many people with true captive bred frilleds. We both take pictures of our babies hatching and are more than willing to send photos of our frilleds. Good Luck!!!
James Tuttle
Old 10-23-2002, 07:37 PM   #10
Gary Walsch
Sorry to hear about your frilled Christy.  If you bought the animal off of an ad on kingsnake and it said " 100% live arrival guaranteed "  and no other conditions were listed then it is implied that " 100% "  also covers shipping.  I would hesitate to ever accept another animal from them, such as a replacement animal for the one that died,  in case of the same thing happening again.  I also feel that if this dealer/person does not refund the shipping price you should post their name here ....... Its not against the rules here !!!

Gary Walsch
Sunshine State Reptiles

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