New Mountain Horned Dragon... questions.

Hello,

Those are great setups! They are really pretty dragons, nice colors.
Yeah, it would probably be good to find another vet. They really should be able to get some type of counts to you even if it is "alot" according to them.
That is a good sign when the other vet had reptiles in the waiting room & specific areas for them in the hospital & boarding area.

Tracie

Bruja and Diablo

NOTE... THIS GOT POSTED IN THE MHD 7 WEEK HATCHINGS THREAD AND A COUPLE RESPONSES WERE POSTED THERE TOO. JUST WANTED TO MOVE IT TO THE PROPER PLACE IN CASE OTHERS WERE FOLLOWING ALONG...


OK vets............. Well as you know we went to the one near us. I think neither of us were too impressed. Well Ok maybe annoyed...he was pretty reluctant to actually do much. He didn't know the counts on the parasites, called back to the tech to see if she remembered! Then just said they were all too high to count. I don't know why they wanted us to come in!! We had to ask twice for him to go ahead and dose her while we were there. He pretty much said no the first time..! we finally were saying look she's here now,, lets get some meds in her!! Please! We asked many questions most of which he was pretty vague about. He didn't bother to really even try to be serious about giving us dosing amounts etc..He did check her (skin pull) for dehydration said she was a little but overall not to badly dehydrated at this point. He did weigh her. AND GOOD NEWS we must be doing something right cause she went from 61 to 68 this week. i thought maybe his scale was off or something but we weighed her tonight and she was 67.>>> THAT was right after she just did an enormous poo! Hooray! Finally! ( Happy about poo, seems so wrong! Lol) So we figured his scale was right on. we checked ours w/ nickels and it was right on too. She actually is showing the slightest bit of greenish tint back . She had sort of an olive greenish color around her collar going down over her shoulders and just a touch of it on her front legs when we first got her. We hadn't seen that since around the third day of arrival. She seems brighter in her eyes too.

Anyway we did get a couple tubes which have made the feeding thing sooo much easier for us and her. i can do it by myself in the am if I need to now .

I slipped her in a little black walnut/wormwood combo last night hoping it would do the trick and get her to go to bathroom. I was getting to the point if she didn't I was afraid to pump anymore food into her! So tonight when we got home was a nice surprise for us. So I got to feed her .

I gave her 2cc. of the carnivore diet, w/ the slightest amount of walnut/wormwood mixed in it , goldenseal, and a bit of multi vitamins and d3. I've been putting a little grapefruit seed extract daily for this week . AND 2 feedings they had some aloe juice, hoping to sooth her gut a little . That was before the vet. I usually give her a little spritz from my nasal mister of ionic silver, on her lips and just little into her mouth after feedings to help keep her mouth from getting infected or anything from all the abrasion of the force feeding. So far so good. it probably helps sooth her throat too if the tube is rubbing it any.

Anyway too bad the meds from the breeder didn't get here yet. Cause she was supposed to have some more meds the next two days in a row. Although its kind of OK in a way. because the vet wasn't clear about how much he gave her of any of the three meds!
The grapfruit seed extract, and goldenseal, and walnut/ wormwood mix are all things that kill parasites and help the body to eliminate them. So she's been getting that ever since . I'm hoping that will keep the numbers from ramping right back up real fast until we can resume treatment.
ANYWAY>>>
he finally said at one point well you can probably get more and better info. from people who are breeding them. he said he'd only seen about 6 or 7 of them ,,altho he thought this one looked really good and way better then any of the others he'd seen. ...Honest I guess ...But then followed that up w/... " you know honestly they all die" .............. He was sooo just UN motivated to help in a way. His staff was all excited and wanted to see the lizard, one picked her up and adored her for a moment etc.. But we were definitely on our own if we wanted dosing info. Among other things. And when we asked about the doses he did ,well he agreed to the amounts after Sylvia figured them out . We asked what about for the beardy. he said well I'd have to know her weight ,,we told him her weight ,and we got really no response w/ out further nagging. And since beardy is 125 and Montana is 67 he said just double it. And he was done. You know We remember wondering what the point was going to be to see the vet... but he did dose her which I wanted , I didn't want to wait any longer.

This is what he said about that aquarium verses the open air cage theory we keep hearing,, "That like Chameleons they need more moving air -being from the mountains. That chameleons can die from stagnant air after a long enough period. ,,, Also he said he didn't nec. agree w/ the intermitant dosing of panacur and or Albon that breeders do. He said its just killing the small ones and leaving the big ones and building resistance. I know thats true of Antibiotics. But these aren't Antibiotics ? Any Thoughts on that theory?????????? Anybody!
Then the vet from the St. Louis Show ( will Pm some thing about that) returned my call this am. By now I didn't have much to ask him anymore! But he basically repeated that theory.about the open air thing.. So apparently its a theory being passed around.

When we take things out of nature we don't know what exactly they really really eat or incidentally ingest, etc.. Many animals tend to eat or expose themselves regularly to very specific things that work as a medicine for them or a maintenance/and or prevention of parasites, or other sickness. Obviously they get and carry parasites in the wild but what keeps them all from dying from it? (I know stressing them /IE:weakens the immune system and all that and lets the little parasites get the upper hand etc..) But still you have to wonder. Its like the Hyacinth Macaws going to the side of river beds to eat chunks of clay, to cleanse or nuetralize the toxins from some of the poisonous and rotten foods they eat. I just wonder if the intermittant dosing w/ panacur etc.. might be working kind of like that just keeping the parasites to a liveable number. Maybe they have a natural remedy in nature we just don't know about that does the same thing.

When we get the meds , its supposed to have dosing info w/ it. So hopefully it will. But we may prey upon you's for assistance or double checking in that area. It scares us! Well, more me! I couldn't be more right brained if I tried sometimes! Numbers give me headaches, or the runs, or something... LOL..


Do you use parazap? it seems like a great thing. Also we saw some new stuff on the videos from the Daytona show ..that has I think (have to recheck) panacure and albon impregnated in food pellets . I read some different things about the parazap, people seem to be super happy about it. Saying their animals growth rates are amazingly better and diff. then the same age of lizards that don't get it. That their color, and appetites are better ,that they just generally get a lot bigger overall. The breeder says its good stuff, I guess its also advertised on the "Beautiful dragons" sight.

I've been giving the Beardy the same mixture of herbal things also to cut down her parasites. I haven't been seeing anymore blood for many days now.

We will have some comparison's to do when we get the breeders dosing. This vet said to give some stuff a lot more often and for longer duration then any of the books say, we have that Klingenberg book. (understanding reptile parasites) I would be more explicit but I don't know where the paper w/ the info is right now and don't remember which etc.. Goodnight G..

Hello!

It is no big deal! We are all interested in your girl & want to help.
How is she doing today? Let us know if you need help with dosing once you get the meds. When are they supposed to get to you? I hope soon.
How is her appetite doing, any improvements so far? You are doing awesome. Keep us posted on her.

Tracie

Well... we were hoping to have the meds by now. I'm really hoping that makes an amazing, miraculous improvement...
She still won't eat on her own at all. She won't even finish chewing a worm if we put it partway in her mouth. She does finish them once we leave... She won't eat any bugs, worms, etc we put in her enclosure with her (she hasn't since the beginning).
She did drink some when she got sprayed on the nose, but only early today... not at all this afternoon.
I'm more worried than Gigi I think. What if she just won't adjust? How awful would it be to have to force feed her everyday... she has to eat on her own. She fights so much I'm afraid she's going to get hurt... I think she might have hurt a toe actually. I'm sure she hates her life with us... enclosed when she's used to a big forest, force feed by these monsters... sigh. If she'd only eat. The beardie actually takes the mixture if we start squirting on her nose. Of course she eats on her own fine, but just to get some natural meds in her we do that.

Hey...I was writing a reply last night and zoned out because of my sleep med...thought that I had replied to other ways that you might be able to get her to eat.

Put some strawberry kiwi gatorade on your thumb and index finger and rub both sides of her mouth along the crack between her lips...some of the gatorade will get in and she might open up to taste it. If she does go ahead and just squirt enough in for a mouthfull and see if she will swallow it.

I would give her the carnivore diet, 1 cap of acidiphollis, 1 cap bee pollen, 1/4 tsp of royal jelly, couple of drops of silver water, pedialyte or gatorade to mix it up, I would add 1/4 of a crushed tums tablet or 1/4 tsp baking soda..I would feed 2-3 cc ONE mouthfull at a time. I'd stop the wormwood for now. I think her gut hurts when she gets food in it. Maybe the tums or the baking soda would calm it down a bit.

Here's another trick to opening the mouth...put the food in the dropper and hold the bulb in your mouth. Hold her upper jaws with one hand and gently grasp the dewlap in the other hand and pull on it....that will usually open them up, you might have to pull harder than you want....when she opens up squeeze the dropper with your lips and make the food go in....of course if you have more than one person they other can squeeze the dropper. That is how I had to start feeding Pandora because Jeff isn't here during the week so I did it by myself.

Hope this helps....Angie

Hi there!well we finally got all the meds! half yesterday. the other half today. Since they are both hanging in there pretty good right now ,and our time was not right for our regular dosing this two days. So i decided since they've been getting regular small doses of wormwood and walnut extract, grapefruit seed extract, and goldenseal along w/ their carnivore diets, that i would give them a 24 to 48 hour break from the medicinals And just do food and vits, w/ the probiotics liquid we got from the breeder to just kind of give time to clear their systems, kidneys, liver,digestive system , maybe sooth their little guts a bit. Before starting back on all the drugs. Montana has still not eaten on her own. But has been ever so slightly easier to tube and feed yesterday and today.

The Beardy who has been mostly uninterested in veggies to this point, ate a whole bowl of them first thing this morning when we put it in her cage! The first morning after the dose of acidophilus. Tonight she was totally ready for her tube of yummy food, and acidophilus. She took down her full cc no problem. She is s-s-seriously voracious eater. Shes wild about it! Most bugs we toss in barely have a chance to hit the floor she practically catches them in her mouth. I'm going to have to start ordering those big cases of crickets for her thru the mail . About 18.00 for a thousand compared to 18.00 to 20.00 for 200 at the pet stores. She can eat 50 crickets easy in a day, she'd eat more if I let her. And I can't use the big ones yet because they 're too big for her. So at these prices 200 cric's only last her about 3 days ! $40.00 or more a week for crickets no way...And thats not counting when the mountain starts eating them too! Thinking breeding crickets should maybe be on the agenda next!! Do any of you get those big boxes of crickets thru the mail?
Montana looks better still. No more weight loss, she gained that 7 points last week and is keeping it. Her color looks better, her bones aren't showing anymore. i just hope she doesn't end up being one that won't eat even after she's well and had time to calm down a little after this prolonged hellish situation! I really wish the meds would have gotten here sooner, it really seemed as if it would at the time, but it didn't work out that way. Any case the forced feeding treatment needed to be shorter! So this has not exactly been trust or calm inspiring for her to say the least!! So the shorter that part goes on the better i would think!
Though yes I'm quite sure she did break her back toe. Its her longest toe on her back foot. Its so small not much to do about it. But it is going thru some redness and swelling. Shes getting both the grapefruit seed extract and goldenseal and ionic silver. All natural antibiotics (among other things!) If anybody knows of any ideas to help her w/ her broken toe I'm certainly open to suggestion? Has anyone had any experience using Comfrey (Also known as "Bone knit" ) w/ lizards? Its really great stuff for people,and would help w/ some of the inflammation too.
Anyway the drug therapy begins tomorrow night w/ both of them.! G.........[font=Century Gothic]

I would think that comfrey would be fine to use....that might just do the trick!

Glad you got the meds and the herbals sure can't hurt anything. I get crickets through Armstrong's Cricket Farm...the one in West Monroe, LA...you can google and it'll come up, there is one in Georgia also. I'm close to them so they get here the next day for me. I've been using them for a couple of years and I've had ZERO problems. You might give the BOI a look after you find some sources and see what kind of reviews they have gotten. I switched over to them for crickets after buying all the ones that PetsMart had several weeks in a row...you're right...it's much more economical to buy in quantity. I have them in a big rubbermaid tote tub with tall sides....no lid needed if you get it tall enough. I keep the egg crate from the shipping box and gutload them there. 1000 is lasting 3-4 weeks now...I was going through 1000/week for about a year! Good luck and keep us posted. Thanks....Angie =)

Ya OK ,

I just read your note which I didn't see before I wrote that last long one! As you can see ,ya -I decided a break from their wormword/mix etc.. But I was alternately giving aloe juice for their tummies too. But now just the food and acidophilus. The dropper thing...Well we moved away from that as soon as we got the long feeding tubes to attach to the syringe holders. It just was easier on her. Ya I try every time to get her little stubborn butt to try whats on her lips first, but she never will. She sits there like a statue w/ that mouth clamped tight as can be! But like I said its been a little easier the last couple days. I was having to do it in the AM's by my self too not an easy job, but got it in her! Oh ya I forgot until you said that.. I got her a bottle of electrolite water, so i used that yesterday and today along w/ a bit of aloe Jc, and just a few drops in the whole mixture of pure black cherry jc, and pure cranberry jc. Its the pure kind no other juices or sugars or anything at all in them just the fruit . Beardy loves it. Also the acidophilus ("acidophiliz") is fruit flavored!

Are the bee pollen and royal jelly for energy?
OK well this is 'my Xanex letter',,LOL so I hope its in some reasonable order!

Hey I saw a really funny e-mail I think you guys would get kick out of. Let me know in pm if you want to share e-mail so I can send It. G............

"Bee pollen is often referred to as nature's most complete food. Human consumption of bee pollen is praised in the Bible, other religious books, and ancient Chinese and Egyptian texts. It has long been prescribed by traditional health practitioners-including the fathers of Western medicine Hippocrates, Pliny the Elder, and Pythagoras-for its healing properties. Bee pollen rejuvenates your body, stimulates organs and glands, enhances vitality, and brings about a longer life span. Bee pollen's ability to consistently and noticeably increase energy levels makes it a favorite substance among many world class athletes and those interested in sustaining and enhancing quality performance." Steve Schecter N.D.