Finding Melissa Kaplan

Originally posted by Darin Chappell I believe that you will find relative agreement among experienced breeders that kinks appear to have more to do with incubation temps, or possibly prenatal vitamin deficiencies of the mother, than one could ever definitively associate with genetic links.

Agreed, but kinks aren't the only thing I see when I buy large batches of nonviable babies for coral snake food. Excessive inbreeding in snakes certainly can cause genetic problems. The trick is defining "excessive".

In fact, I am not aware of kinked snakes being bred to determine any sort of a genetic link.

Albino Western diamondbacks that have not been outcrossed are notorious for producing an excessive number of kinked offspring regardless of prenatal conditions. I do suspect that in this particular case this trait is genetic and heritable, and may be linked to the trait that produces albinism.

I hardly think that all corn snake breeders are producing huge numbers of deformities in their quest for new morphs. If they were, my feed bills would be a lot cheaper than they are. I do agree that the problem exists and that it is not a bad idea to point it out. I think that most of the major corn snake breeders are already addressing the potential problems in a responsible manner.

Gentlemen, this ship don't float. Stay at your own risk.

I reckon since we aren't in her "club" we don't have opinions that make enough sense/difference to change her mind.

I have seen this before and will doubtless see it again.

Damn shame though, she seemed pretty smart. No, that's not fair, I know she is pretty smart. She's proven that in her technique and in some of the information she has posted. Perhaps a new perscription for her glasses though, one that would enable her to see anything other than that specifically and in particular recommended by Mader and those very few others she has on that pedestal. That would be nice. Somehow though, I just don't see it happening.

Wes Pollock

Originally posted by wilomn I reckon since we aren't in her "club" we don't have opinions that make enough sense/difference to change her mind.

I reckon you are making up silly things about clubs because you insist on categorizing everything in black and white. Real life doesn't work that way.

Yes, there are legitimate concerns that were brought up about the corn snake care sheet. No, Melissa Kaplan is not infallible and I don't agree with every recommendation she makes. No, she did not get everything wrong, and she is not the evil Antichrist. Give it a rest already. It sounds to me like it has become rather the fashionable thing to disparage Melissa Kaplan and to accuse her of all manner of evils, including some she isn't committing.

Whether you like her politics or not, it is a fact that Kaplan's pages are recommended by acknowledged world experts in reptile medicine. I do not particularly care if pointing out this fact makes me unpopular and causes me to be accused of participating in some Great Evil Conspiracy or suchlike silly things. It is still a fact. If you have a problem with this fact, I recommend you contact these experts directly and discuss your specific concerns.

Ask them, "Why do you continue to recommend Ms. Kaplan's site when the following potentially harmful and misleading inaccuracies exist there?" Then supply your documentation and be prepared to back up your claims. If you do this correctly, you may accomplish something good for the community. But if you make your complaints in a discourteous and unprofessional manner without any documentation, you will be rightfully ignored as a crank. That's a lot of what I'm seeing on this thread, unfortunately.

I don't take it personally when people disagree with me; in fact I appreciate it when someone takes the time to courteously point out something I might have missed. However when people debate by name calling and making personal slurs instead of stating points of fact, they simply lose their credibility.

If there was such a thing as a "club" you would have to belong to before I am inclined to listen to you, membership could be easily obtained by the simple expedient of stating your disagreements in a calm and professional manner that focuses on the facts. Some people have done this admirably; others have not. I leave it to you to decide how your own conduct measures up to these standards.

Originally posted by Darin Chappell
Cornsnakes, DO NOT eat crickets, and Ms. Kaplan saying they do does not make it so. For her to have such drivel on her website is absolutely wrong, dangerous, and idiotic, given the amount of quality information that has been available on cornsnakes for YEARS!

I actually see two separate issues here. It is mentioned in more than one naturalist's guide that young corn snakes will take invertebrate prey in the wild. That is a factual statement; it is quite true that they will do this. The second issue is whether it is a good idea to include that fact on a care sheet for beginners, because the results could be very unhealthy for the young snakes if they make the leap of logic that what snakes eat in the wild must be the best choice for them in captivity. Nowhere on that care sheet is it stated that it is a good idea to feed crickets to corn snakes, but the assumption can be made fairly easily.

Would it have been a good idea to "dumb down" the naturalistic information on the sheet so that no one could get confused and decide to feed crickets to corn snakes based on what it says they eat in the wild? Probably so.

Snakes in the wild may have to risk eating a lot of things that are less than optimal food; it's called survival. We certainly don't need to duplicate those conditions in captivity, not unless we want the same kind of high mortality rate that happens to baby snakes in the wild.

Because of the nature of morph creation, I can assure you that some of my cornsnakes are as inbred as they can be, but I have experienced NONE of the frailties that she cites, nor has ANYONE ELSE I KNOW! I would love to see just ONE SHRED of evidence on this from her. Tanith, you have rightly asked for evidence to back up our claims about her, why not ask her for the evidence for her claims about our industry???

I am not in communication with Ms. Kaplan, but the people who will (or won't) have the evidence you're looking for are reptile specialist veterinarians with a lot of clinical experience treating corn snakes. My guess is that this statement has some truth to it, and I am also guessing that I know the source. I can check up on that and let you know, if you honestly want an answer on this topic.

Any animal can tolerate a certain amount of inbreeding, but past a certain point some undesirable recessives are going to start cropping up. Snakes are not immune to this problem. I don't think that the problem is quite as widespread as Ms. Kaplan appears to be implying, but I do suspect that veterinarians are identifying at least some cases that are as described.

And let's face it - when the average person with a corn snake notices that it is sick, the chances that it will end up in the care of an experienced reptile specialist veterinarian who can identify exactly what is wrong with it are a bit on the slim side. So there are things that could be going wrong with our snakes that we aren't ever going to know about without more advanced diagnostic tools and skills than are normally applied to a sick reptile.

I am not in communication with Ms. Kaplan

Tanith, you're an outright liar.

Your website is linked off Kaplan's. I dislike Kaplan very much... but I also have slammed my head against her propaganda enough times to understand, to some degree, how she operates. She would not add a link to your site on her own unless she had permission. This means you and she have communicated.

I also now understand why you were so adamant about defending her... you share her politics and her methods. You're another dangerous one, one to watch out for and combat.

Posted here is a piece of a screenshot off Melissa Kaplan's webpage http://www.anapsid.org/mainsnakes.html showing the URL information and the link. I have a full screenshot but I don't like the way they blow the page up and force text out to either side.

I will tend to go away from the norm on this subject but will interject my thoughts.

Liberace was not a great piano player he was a fantastic showman. MK isnt really the showman and for sure isnt a reptile expert, but she is the name thats out there and has a one stop site to cover all care info for reptiles.


Her errors, her lack of desire to correct said errors are important but what is important is that no one is doing anything about providing an alternative to her site. Now dont get me wrong, you have forums and breeder sites and breeders themselves. However most of the true beginners get their animal from the store that the eighteen year old selling is more likely to say "yuck a spiney dragon" as "wow nice beardie but dont use the hot rock go for a spot light or...."

As has been pointed out Vets are not the best source for day to day care info. So they will refer to a source that is easy and know. So rather than sit a bitch all day about MK this or MK that let do something to put the alternative out there.

If MK wants to say her snake can hear then go for it.....I talk to my snakes (I also talk to myself a lot too) and everyone laughs at me. I know that they cant hear but i dont care. But am I really hurting anything or is she.

Now I will speak to something else and when this thread started I thought it and decided that was not the time to voice my feeling. When someone asks about MK or wants to contact for info wouldnt it be better to actually say "well this is the URL to her website.....but what info did you need we can help you better" ?? NO, the sarcasm, the humor and the attempt to carry the concept of I am smarter than God and will try to make you feel stupid without really telling you anything put you all in the same boat as MK. A lot of fluff but no real substance..... Just once I would like certain individuals shut up on their rants, that in my opinion turn more beginners off than provide any worthwhile information, and provide something with some meat.

You want to stop MK dont try to impress me with how much you know about how wrong MK is. Try to impress the guy asking with how much you know about the animal he wants info for.

The following are my opinions:

So rather than sit a bitch all day about MK this or MK that let do something to put the alternative out there.

Michael,

Are you kidding. Are you living in a cave, or are you just blind as to what is out there? There are hundreds if not thousands of other sites out there for herp info. Much of that info is, in my opinion, much better than any given out by Melissa Kaplan. You see though, she does something more than provide her own brand of info, she apparently went into it as a full time business and is likely, by my guess, supported by extremist animal rights folks. That is only a guess mind you but who do you suggest should support the person or people who take up the anti MK site? Hmm, now that you have suggested it, why not get their support yourself and do what you said should be done yourself , instead of doing what surely must amount to your own type of bitching and moaning. Oh I know why, you are possibly an MK supporter, but I'll get to that later.

Oh but wait, let me tell you who is out there who already puts out information about herp care in a big time way and whose information for the most part is on the money. The Bartletts, both Richard (Dick) and Patricia, the Loves both Bill and Kathy, De Vosjoli, Phillipe (no matter that some on this site suspect him of plagiarism), just about every herpetological society that you can name which have websites, Jeff Corwin, the English guy with the red hair - O' someone or other (sorry I am bad on names), and there are pet info TV shows on local channels around the country. There are also lots of other herp authors (my goodness doesn't anyone buy books for their children anymore), herp specialty shops, zoos, museums and so forth that give out information. There are even people who have their own web pages dedicated to giving out good info about herps and herp care. Heck I even have my own site called Herp Helper of all things, and found in of all places on AOL. The main reason I have it is so people can ask me herp related questions. All of these people and institutions try to give correct information all of the time. They can be a great help to hobbyists all of the time. My guess would be that Melissa Kaplan started out this way too, but somewhere along the line I believe, or at least hypothesize, she went astray and seemingly started not to care so much whether or not her info was correct but rather how many minds she could lure to her way of thinking.

the concept of I am smarter than God and will try to make you feel stupid without really telling you anything put you all in the same boat as MK.

Who was talking about god? So is what are you saying here that Melissa Kaplan is god, and we are trying to show we know more than god - or did I infer incorrectly?

You want to stop MK dont try to impress me with how much you know about how wrong MK is. Try to impress the guy asking with how much you know about the animal he wants info for.

No one is trying to impress anyone! Is that what you think? Maybe you have an ego problem then that is based in some way upon a hidden inner desire to be like Melissa Kaplan or to be liked by her, or maybe just to show the rest of us we are wrong, or maybe simply to support your goddess. I surely don't know but am wondering after you make statements like that.

Now to get a bit more to the point - are you one of those who would figuratively let people preaching incorrect mumbo jumbo walk among us, and say we should not point out their being wrong as a warning to others to stay away from them and to be leery of their information - because in my opinion it sure appears as if that is what you just did. I on the other hand am one who likes to call a spade a spade much as you in your own way are doing to the rest of us as you see fit based upon your own opinion. Little bit of circular reasoning there I think on your part, but I would not expect less from a supporter of Kaplan, and yes in my opini9on you seem to be just that.

If MK wants to say her snake can hear then go for it.....I talk to my snakes (I also talk to myself a lot too) and everyone laughs at me. I know that they cant hear but i dont care. But am I really hurting anything or is she.

And if anyone wants to doubt that you are being supportive of her, just look at the above quote where you say she should go for it. Sure there is something wrong with her telling kids, who are old enough to, with supervision, be caring for snakes, that a snake can hear airborne sounds or her voice if that is what she is saying. If they cannot hear airborne sounds, which seems to be the proven theory, then her telling people that they can would be a lie or misinformation. I believe such was recently proven in hearing test performed on king cobras and the result can be taken across to apply to all snakes that have the same ear apparatus. The thing is she seemingly, as I see it, tries to persuade kids (including and teens and gullible adults) that she is the best herp expert by suckering them into liking her. She apparently, as I see it, does so in part by making herself out to be some sort of Mrs. Doolittle character who talks to her animals (and do they listen back- well, you said that is what she says or at least that they can hear her).

Now if you cannot see anything wrong with that, tell me if a stranger walked up to one of your children and offered them a piece of candy to lure them over what would you think and do? If one walked up and said his/her puppy is lost can you help little boy or little girl what would you think or do? If one walked up to your child in a pet shop, as your child was looking at the snakes, and I started talking nicely to the snakes to impress your child or lure your child away, what would you do and think? More importantly when later explaining to your child about why not to talk to strangers and while explaining that snakes cannot hear and that the man was up to no good - riddle me this: What would you say to your child, what would your reply be, when your child looks back at you and says but Melissa Kaplan said snakes can hear daddy and that she talks to them - so why are you saying they couldn't hear that nice man at the pet shop!

Of course that is just a set of hypothetical situations and are the extreme, but why on earth don't you see that giving out misinformation to kids or others is wrong? Here is a less radical example of how it may effect a kid to believe stuff like that. Your 8 year old child is playing outside when he/she encounters an Eastern Diamondback Rattler in the yard. The snake is coiled and able to strike, but the child does not realize this and is curious. The child says to the snake "Hi Mr. Snake, I like you, do you like me" The snake rattles a warning and the child thinks this is an answer but knows enough that it is a warning or at least the child is put on alert. Then the child says "Don't be mad Mr. Snake lets be friends, I really like you, you are so cool. Can we be friends?" The child gets no responding rattle this time and figures that the snake heard him/her, and maybe even understood him/her. (Where is it that the child would have gotten an idea like this?) The child begins to walk over to the snake all the time happily talking to it telling it let's be friends when the snake suddenly and unexpectedly (unexpected by the child who thought the snake was listening) strikes and puts the child in the hospital for several days of torturous hell. When your child looks up from the bed into your eyes and says: Daddy, that nice lady said snakes could hear us, why was this one nasty I told it I wanted to be its friend?" Well what are you going to say then? That is how uninformative and misleading things could lead to disaster of the worst sort. Yet on the other hand they can also lead to the death of a snake or other herp when the info given out is about animal care. Sure it matters that the right info is given out, or that when you are informed your info is wrong and it is proven so, that you correct it.

Misinformation also leads to laws being passed that severely curtail pet ownership as has just been done in NY. Animal rights activist are probably ecstatic that this bill has passed. My guess would be that someone like Melissa Kaplan is also happy about it, but again I am guessing. I think the bill has not yet been signed into law so there is hope, but how did it get this far already. My guess is that hundreds if not thousands of herpers in NY state have written to the state government to prevent passage of this bill, yet it received only 2 (TWO) votes against it! You figure why yourself, but I think know why already and I think it is mostly because of misinformation spewed by people like Melissa Kaplan and by animal rights extremists, or maybe by people with nothing better to do and with lots of money to spend screwing over others.

I am pretty sure you will again say someone should get on the proverbial white steed to challenge her, but also bear in mind that she apparently does this full time while others have to work for a living in other ways than having a website and writing, what in my opinion, are uninformative misleading web pages and book(s). Such is the norm when it comes to hobbies or professions. Someone attacks your hobby or profession as is being done now, or someone gives it a bad name, or gives out misinformation about it, and people like you say hold everything, why are you not fighting her on her own turf! Simply put because there are other things in people's lives that also need to be done, and we do not have the same amount of time as she because she apparently does this as her profession! So we fight as we can, or better yet we provide the right stuff as we can. So any time that anyone mouths off against her for the reasons that she supposedly gives out or has given out bad info and so forth, I in my opinion think it a good thing, that is until at least which time she chooses to correct her info!

Like I said that is all my opinion, take it or leave it.

Best regards,
Glenn B

It stuns me that just because someone takes a stance that is against the norm of the world of experience herpers that they all of a sudden become an MK supporter.

It funny but in reading this thread Glen you were the first person to answer the starter in a civil manner. For that none of my statments were directed at you. But others who would rather take the time and effort of typing to prove a point of their feelings for MK rather than truely help with a situation.

Glen take yourself out of the years of experience for a second and you are now a beginner looking to by your first corn snake. You do not know any of the sources you mentioned. You go down to the local Petco or pet shop and buy the snake. Now you dont know who to turn to. Just basic care isnt going to be answered by a vet. I might be by a book, but lets face it people just dont read anymore. All of a sudden MK gets brought up as a place to get info. Why because it is a place to get info. Type Corn Snake into google and what is the first one. This isnt a conspiracy of who "killed the snake" she has taken the time, probably because she has the time to put her "product" out there. You go to KS, and yes KS will come up before fauna will, guess who is there. Maybe AOL or other public forums. The bottom line is the beginner will go through a lot of MK before they ever get to the experience on Fauna.....and look what a person is treated like when the say the dreaded name.

Glen take a test sign up to this forum on a false name and state you need help with info on MK, you will face 10 responces of s**t before someone is civil to you. With that bad taste in your mouth are you going to come back, and are you going to just keep going to the MK site because its easy and no abuse from the experienced crowd.

My feeling is this, especially from certain individuals that as a beginner you will be humiliated for even the idea of MK is right. Look at how you responded to me and I never said she was right. (I know my snakes cant hear but I talk to my pets and I will continue to talk to my snakes they are my pets, since when does that make me an MK supporter) Until people guit trying to impress each other and deal with putting a product into peoples hands that is as name worthy as MK she will always be the one that refered to by other less knowledgable sources. And for gods sake when someone asks dont make them feel like fool for doing so.

Michael,


Well Michael, it stuns me that you would jump to this coclusion based upon what I wrote in my last post. To jump to such a conclusion is as I see it to paint the picture with your emotions and not to portray my statements factually at all.

It stuns me that just because someone takes a stance that is against the norm of the world of experience herpers that they all of a sudden become an MK supporter.

I never for a moment believed you to be a supporter of Melissa Kaplan because you voiced an opinion different from others here in this thread. I believed you a supporter of Melissa Kaplan because of sentiments expressed by way of statements you wrote! Now if those statements portray you as having a stance that is supportive of Melissa Kaplan, well so be it. Bear in mind, I did not write that statement - you did!

Your statement in part was, in my opinion, supportive of Ms. Kaplan and, in my opinion, was supportive of her giving out bad advice. I saw it as specifically so with regard to the hearing capabilities of snakes. You cannot deny that you wrote it nor that it appears to be supportive in that you say she should go for it and by implying that it is not doing harm! That is, as I see it, exactly what makes you supportive of her. Of course you never said she was right but you certainly implied, as I see it, that her being wrong was not doing anyone a disservice. To give out bad info about snakes or any other reptile or amphibian, when that information is little more than an anthropomorphic ploy to attract others to your own flawed belief system is out an out wrong and can wind up resulting in harm to the very animals for which we are caring.

If you don't see your support for her that in what you wrote, read it again.

If MK wants to say her snake can hear then go for it.....I talk to my snakes (I also talk to myself a lot too) and everyone laughs at me. I know that they cant hear but i don't care. But am I really hurting anything or is she.

If you still don't see your support of Melissa Kaplan in that one breif statements, then what can I say. I pointed out what I saw there, what you wrote there - it is plain for anyone to see.

By the way, I am not even suggesting there is anything wrong with talking to your snakes. While it does not soothe them or communicate anything to them, it certainly can have a soothing or confidence building effect on the person doing it. If that is what you like to do fine, but don't start telling people that you talk to your snakes and they understand you, or are soothed by you, or even hear you when you know it is not so (and please don't tell me they respond or talk back - yikes). If you wonder: 'Why not tell others they can hear?', well simply because that is when it becomes so much manure or so many lies, and that is when it becomes wrong and can lead to other problems later on. The problems would likely be mostly that the same people who so much wanted to believe this fairy tale stuff also wind up believing you when you give other info, and believe you when you give bad info about them and their care. Antrhopomorphic ploys have been a tool of adults trying to sway children for many years sometimes for good and sometimes for just not so good reasons. In a case like the one under discussion it is, as I see it, an out and out wrong for the reasons I stated.

Now since you apparently are aware that Ms. Kaplan may be giving out bad or incorrect information, at least as far as other seemingly knowledgeable people are concerned, about herps and herp care, why would you ever recommend her to anyone or fault anyone for pointing out where they believe she does wrong?

Finally, I wonder why you find it funny that I posted an earlier civil answer to this thread. Are you suggesting that I was not civil toward you. My reply to you was just as civil, but maybe not as much to your liking as the other I made earlier. I was forthright, blunt, strongly to the point, and diametrically opposed to what you wrote; however, I was not uncivil in doing so. I also wonder when you say you were not addressing me in your post, do you think I took your post personally as addressed to me? I am subscribed to this thread, I read your post, which is here on a public forum, and I chose to answer it. Now if you felt humiliated or made the fool by what I wrote, maybe there is a reason for you to feel humility or foolish. You will have to decide that one for yourself. Maybe you should not be supportive of a person like Melissa Kaplan, but more supportive of they who see what they believe to be her flaws and who make attempts to correct them.

Best regards,
Glenn B

In summary let me say this. For what ever reason I talk to my snakes I just do, not because she said I could, not because I feel they understand, I just do it.....do I tell anyone that they hear no....I tell all that they cant. (of course most listen about as well as the snakes) And for the record I have never sent anyone to, or made any statement that MK is right, and her site should be visited because its the dream source for all. Never said it never will. Enough said on that,

Your response is no different than mine it may not be to the liking and the road of our personal options but it is civil and I can deal with it.

What I found humorous "ie: funny"" is that you were not the person, do to your civil answer to the starter, that I had a problem with.

My feeling is simply this, when a beginner askes about MK, because more than likely they have been told its the place to go, instead of poking fun and making them seem stupid. Wouldnt the hobby and the trade be better suited to being helpful. I agree this hobby and business have an enough uphill battles. But keeping and educating all no matter how silly the question or statement advances more, and builds more good will than all the bashing.

Sometimes the knowledge that 30 years of experience gives can be taken for granted, but to the beginner that knowledge is the gold mine as to whether the beginner stays in the hobby or leaves never to return. Can we afford to loose one more voice in support of the hobby??

I am not so far removed from the start of reptiles in my life that I havent forgotten that the only reason I stayed was the help and knowledge of people who took the time to point out my errors and not ridicule me for making them. And yes somewhere in that mix MK's book and site was refered to me since I do have an iguana. But if I had been treated like some here treated this guy I would have chucked it all and said forget it.