breeding question

i have a question............i have a 5-6 month old female vieled and i have benn putting her in my males cage..........and she hasnt really signaled any receptive colors......but it seemed to me that she was acting a little differantly lately and her brother who i also have has been showing lots of aggression and color to me for like the last month or 2.........(oh yeah and by the way he is NOT the male im trying to pair her up with) but anyway i know gaping and flattening out and rocking are all signs that she is not receptive and she does these things............but it seems to me its not a very agressive gapeing and there is no hissing or color changing ( the only color changing i witness is the spots on her side changing from the usual tan to a bright white)or even trying to stay away from him......i left her in there for like 10 mins and it seemed like she calmed down and then she walked right up next to him and started rocking rubbing up against him then a little bit later i noticed them nudding eachother with thier closed mouths real softly........and i was kind of wondering if that was a sign of courting and if because she displayed signs of aggression to some degree (wich i thought might be from me handling her and throwing her in a new cage) should i assume she is not receptive? and another thing that made me think she couldnt possibly be that stressed out by him was she walked right down in front of him and started eating his plant and then his left over crickets?? so im getting mixed signals and would like some opinions if you will thank you
lisa

If she calmed down as you described after being in the male's cage for a while, that's as receptive as she's going to get. In my experience, its best to leave them together at that point until the female aggressively rejects the male. At that point she should also be displating gravid patterning with the black background and contrasting yellow bars. The process can take a day or two to run it's course.

Keep in mind too, that the female is only going to be receptive for a short period of time. I believe the window is only about 10 days in a given cycle. Most breeders will try weekly introduction attempts until the female accepts the male's presence. As soon as she allows him to approach without too much fuss, its time to leave them together for a while.

Also, its not unusual for the female to put up a little struggle before allowing the male to have his way. Its not like he bought her dinner and a movie, she can't be expected to give it away!

R

Hey Lisa,

She may be showing receptive behavior. However, I would not suggest breeding her until she has completely reached physical as well as sexual maturity. It can stunt her growth. Shorten her lifespan. As well as her ending up being egg bound. Just coming into view of a male can trigger her to produce infertile eggs. The production of eggs in a growing female may also strip the bones of calcium and cause MBD. It is not, in my opinion, a good idea to breed them any younger than a year or any smaller than 5" snout to vent. I also don't think it is a good idea for most chameleons to be in direct contact or visual contact unless during mating, after mating my chams are promptly re-seperated.

Just my opinion. I hope it helps.

The nosing that you observed is pretty common during courtship. The next time you observe this, listen a little closer. You might experience something about veileds pretty unique to the species. Veileds can communicate on some level through producing a vibration. It almost has to be felt rather than heard. I have noticed breeding veileds do this countless times. I have a male that does it rather frequently when he is being held. It seems he does it then more when he is suddenly surprised and a little stressed though. It is rather freaky the first time you experience it. There was a real good article in the Chameleons Online E-zine, www.chameleonnews.com ,a while back. Still alot to be learned about this behavior though.

Take care,

yeah i was going to wait untill she was older but then she started acting strangly like climbing the cage walls and i was worried about egg binding stuff but umm acctually shes displaying spots right now...............her over all color is a darker green with spots but not black and shes been having them off and on ever since like 2 days after think this is a sign of her beeing gravid? im pretty confident she will be fine if she is i bought her at 1 month in excellent condition and shes been feed awesomly and i have never had ANY problem with her but i do take into account what your telling me...............and i would have waited but i kinda panicked because a lot of articles say that if shes not bred there is a higher risk of being egg bound and ive never had her try to get away from her enclosure and i have a male in my closet across the room and out of site but she hasnt done this untill recently but thank you very much for responding if i have anymore questions i know where to come

Umm, yeah. Brian's got some points there too. While its true that veileds can wait until their second cycle to breed, I hardly think its possible that she will ovulate at the sight of a male.

In addition, the vibration produced by the chams is subsonic, so you won't be able to hear it so much as feel it through your hand or a branch. Also, while this trait is universal, rather than unique, to the specie, its not unique to the genus. There are several species of chameleon capable of this sort of communication.

MBD is no longer a valid term as it has been replaced by the more specific Secondary Nutritional Parathyroidism. As long as proper calcium supplementation is provided there is no reason why you can't try to breed your female now.

R

acually firtal eggs are slightly bigger then infirtal eggs, so in reality she would be in more risk if breed. But breeding will have no effect on weither she will get egg bound or not. This happend to some chams... bad husbandry is a good cause, but sometimes your just unlucky... I wouldent sugest breeding her till she is at least one. even if she starts laying eggs befor that.

Oh and spots like u discribed are either she is pissed lol, or possibly gravid.

yeah im pretty confident i have given her the best care possible her and her brother have always looked like they were in awesome condition so that was a thought that went through my head .....but i did want to wait just to be on the safer side anyway........but im very nervouse when it comes to them.............i dont know if that makes sense.........but anyway when i see the spots on her she is just sitting in her cage relaxed from what i can tell so im gonna guess she probably is. and she is aprox 5-6 inches from nose to vent and i do have pictures of her if you would care to see and give me your opinion ........ is it unusual for a gravid female to have the spots inconsistantly? or are they constantly there

Good point about the egg size Brandy. Its just that my experience has been that younger female veileds get confused more than older veileds when it comes to what to do when its time to lay. Even when health is terrific and a proper laying chamber was provided. Very frustrating. Ends bad in that case. I think sometimes egg binding is a genetic predisposition.

Lowell, I respect your different opinion on what age to breed. Alot of people do it regularly. For me, I found it to be a bad decision in the long run. I know about the new term for MBD. However, I would not think it to be useless when somebody is searching for info. How many hits come up for MBD versus SNP. Though SNP is a more understanded description for the condition it does not write off the valuable info out there found under MBD. You learn about MBD eventually you find yourself to the new term used. MBD/SNP CAN and does happen to chameleons receiving calcium supplementation. Incorrect supplement proportions to UVB to metabolic need causes the condition.

Lisa, if she is gravid, or you do decide to go ahead and try, let us know exactly how the experience goes. I hope she is not, and I hope you wait. Egg production takes a heavy toll on even the healthiest full sized chameleon. Patience, persistence, and timing are the keys to breeding chameleons. Most females when gravid turn a deep chocolate gray color with lots of yellow spots all over the sides. Its a rather drastic change. They usually stay this way from conception to laying. Post a pic, I am sure we can tell you. I have never lost a female veiled to egg binding from not breeding. I believe it to be a myth. I have a couple of females right now that are sisters, age 4.5yrs, that have never been bred. They do lay infertile eggs occassionally with no problem. They are the oldest females I have had to date. I also have never had a female veiled lay infertile eggs at a young age without being in view/contact with a male.

My opinions are not typed to argue, flame anybody, or prove I know more than anybody else. I hope nobody takes them that way. Civil debate and discussing our husbandry helps us all. Shoot, I'm just glad to hear other voices around here.

i really do appreciate everyones opinions i would have to say after looking at her again she is like a brownish greyish greenish color and the spots arent yellow thier like a darker color of brownish green or thier her usual green color but this is unusual coloration for her she doesnt usually change color at all with handling or anything but just now when i picked her up she looked really dark brown (does her being of the orange sunburst coloration have anything to do with it possibly) or maybe shes just still a little riled up from me introducing her to my male on wednesday i guess ill just have to wait it out but she has a laying site in her cage with her and her food is served in a dish (not that she would let any morsels get away from her anyway lol shes a pig) but anyways thanks a lot.......i have looked at about every site on the web trying to find out what i can about the breeding process and only came up with what i already knew ive also read some books on them to no avail (i always get stuck with the rare circumstances i guess) but anyway thank you all very much and i will be checking the thread for more suggestions and i will keep you posted k
thanks
lisa