Has this ever happened to you,,?

Gee Richard lets hope PETA doesnt read your post since what you are saying is the very thing that PETA makes the stance on. And if you truely believe that then maybe your a secret PETA member.

As long as we do what we can at hobby or business level then the industry will be the better for it. Sometimes we need to bring a bad situation to the attention of those who enforce the law. And using the legal system in any bad situation isnt a bad thing. My belief is Marcia did help the animals.

As far as PETA being able to pass laws you seem to sell your voice and the voices of others that love herps short. With herp societies and groups creating campaigns against those potential laws then it becomes voice against voice.

I don't see PETA as an all powerfull entity to fear or cringe in the corner from.

The bottom line of this is Marcia did what she thought was right.

I would rather someone do something to help that to do nothing at all. Because by doing nothing PETA will get all the ammunition it needs.

As far as Seamus is concerned he went way overboard on Marcia. And I for one am calling him on it. He can have his opinion and yes we all know Seamus has his opinions. But his opinion doesn't give him the right to say what he did. If you view what I am doing as the same then so be it. But its about time we find out about this person who will willingly tell us all we are wrong. But won't tell us anything about himself or his background to lend credibility to his posts.

It just seems strange to me how everyone is passionately railing againts pet stores but no one seems to be directing any anger at the people who bred these lizards in unsanitary conditions. Wouldn't they really be the root of the problem? The ignorance of pet store employees didn't make the geckos sick, and probably isn't really sufficient to make them sick during their few weeks in the store. I know Petco shouldn't be buying sick geckos, but in a perfect world, I guess, they would arrive at the store healthy and none of this would have happened.

I also think I'm missing something, if this arguement is about the California caresheet legislation. Either some other law went into effect that I'm missing, or Petco now has to hand out caresheets because their lizards were sick before they came to the store. What does the caresheet say, 'Take this animal to the vet immediately and wash your hands before eating?'

For the record, I worked at a Petco for six month a few years back, and we didn't lose one leopard gecko. They were all very healthy and I was proud to sell them. Sure, we lost a few other animals for various reasons (boy howdy), but this seems to be a Eublepharis thread so I won't elaborate.

Erin B.

She did give PETA one more thing to use as an arguement that pets should be banned.

Richard, I am having a difficult time understanding how and why I am the one responsible for what Petco does. PETCO provides PeTA with the argument that pets should be banned by blatantly and willfully continuing to neglect and sell sick animals. PETCO themselves are the ones that perpetuate PeTA's plight, not me!

Since there seems to be a pattern of this behavior with Petco stores all over the country, and PeTA is everywhere thrying to get them to stop selling animals, it would appear to me that there might be some basis for PeTA's campaign.

Did I attempt to help make a difference by training the staff at a couple of Petco stores? Yes. Did I quit too soon? Perhaps. Did I react to what I saw and experienced with Petco? Yes. Did I publicly 'badmouth' Petco right after the training? No! Did I run to the authorities? No. Did I make a mistake in judgement? Depends. Did I realize that I was way over my head and back off? You bet! Am I a PeTA supporter? NO WAY!

Laws are created for the few that break them, whether it's a pet store selling infected animals or a private breeder selling infected animals. Unfortunately, ALL of us are subject to often unreasonable rules because somone else feels they are exempt from them. The BOI on this very site is FULL of people "bad mouthing" those breeders, and you & Seamus are among those that jump on the bandwagon to dig up dirt on them. Who is the bad guy? Is it the person who publicly posted what they feel are facts, or is it the breeder that knowingly sold that person a sick snake? Are the legitimate, concerned pet owners the cause of 'leash laws', or is it the guy who continually lets his dog crap in his neighbor's yard?

I feel it is high time that businesses in general are held accountable for their actions, along with everybody else. It is Petco's own doing that has gotten them into the mess they are in.

Rozann, please have at least the miniscule amount of respect for me that it would take to refer to me by some moniker of my choosing, instead of some thinly veiled insult.

One person is not going to be the end all of herps.

So you are saying that one person cannot make a difference. It is exactly this attitude that will make the difference. One person may not be able to make a difference. but ten thousand "one person"s can make a difference. That is, unless they decide they can't so why try? If only two people that I teach how to care for the animals in the stores take that knowlege and pass it on, then I have made a difference.

BTW, if one person cannot make a difference, then why congratulate Marcia for what she did? She is only one person, and so could not have affected any change, right?

For now Richard, she did help the animals that were there and some of the corruption behind it.

This not only contradicts what you said in the very same post, but is incorrect. Those animals are not healthier or happier. They have simply not been shipped.

What do you propose MM? Please tell me

I propose that those of us who know continue to educate those who do not. It would not take very long for the kids that we educate, who take care of the animals, to be the managers who oversee the kids who take care of the animals.

To be so paranoid that there are all these little peta lurkers (LOL, sorry just imagining it) crawling around is crazy too

oh wait, you are not the king................ just the pawn.

Who is paranoid?

no one seems to be directing any anger at the people who bred these lizards in unsanitary conditions. Wouldn't they really be the root of the problem?

Erin has made an excellent point. If you have read the entire thread, you would be fully aware that I did indeed address the suppliers of these creatures that Petco claims to 'come in that way.' I would have been all too happy to post all of that had the thread been allowed to continue in the way it had been before Seamus 'went ballistic.' But that in itself is another story..

The issue is that Petco KNOWINGLY sold the animals in that condition, refused them veterinary care and treatment, and kept them in deplorable conditions that could cause the ones that may not have been infected to become infected. Apparently, they continue to do so all over the contry. What makes Petco any less responsible than the 'reptile mills' that produce them?

Richard or Mr. Mott, (which ever you choose)

Please do not put words in my mouth or formulate some different in your mind than I intended to write, or in this case did write.
One person won't end all herps. I did not say one person can not make a difference. Of course one person can make a difference, just not end it all. I believe I did mention education.
With that said your second point is not a contradiction.
I do not believe that I congradulated Marcia, please do correct me if I am wrong. I believe in the beginning I said something about hindsight, and whether she is right or wrong. I would have to go back and look for exact words, but I am sure you will do that for me.
Education I will not dispute, I have said it also, still, what about the drunge stores, or the breeders who are bad or the mills, what do you propose we do without giving PETA a yahoo?
I don't believe that there is a easy answer to that, that is why it is important not only to educate, but to also stick together in the mutual love and respect that we have for this animals, and that does not include name calling or demeaning someone for something they tryed to do.
If Seamus had wrote like this last letter in here, not much would have been said, I for one would have respected his opinion like I have done in the past. Its the posts like the ones before this last that I do not respect, it is his inability to be humble when he is clearly acting childish that I do not respect.
As to my stooping, I do apoligize. It is not becoming in him nor is it in me. Having some fun and got carried away, unfortunately at your expense.
Erins post was exellent and very true.
I believe there has to be more, at times, than just educate, and that is to get the people who give all of us, as a whole, a bad name out of the business.

Education I will not dispute, I have said it also, still, what about the drunge stores, or the breeders who are bad or the mills, what do you propose we do without giving PETA a yahoo?

Internal control.

Stop giving money to bad breeders.

Start giving money to good breeders.

Make unhealthy animals unprofitable.

Tell new keepers the good people to deal with and the people to shy away from.

Use the BOI and other similar forums.

Explain that long term financial success can only come from a repeat customer base which only arises through having quality animals and good customer service to anyone who seems to be slipping.

When unhealthy animals are no longer profitable, they are no longer produced.

I believe there has to be more, at times, than just educate, and that is to get the people who give all of us, as a whole, a bad name out of the business

The issue is not really getting bad business stopped, I don't think anyone on these boards wants dying animals.

The issue is the means used to go about it and the dual effect of trying to impose legal ramifications.

By siding with animal rights activists, even on a single issue, it becomes a situation where the cure is worse than the disease, the after effects worse than the problem.

It appears that Seamus has taken his homepage off of AOL since I posted the link to it, and has changed his 'Hobbies and Interests' from a list of 3 types of snake anti-venom to "I have not listed any hobbies and interests" on his AOL profile!

He has also been posting like a civilized grown-up ever since I wrote this comment:

NONE of us want our collections raided, and I have a sneaking suspicion that is exactly what Seamus is afraid of... after reading through his home page I am forming the opinion he probably does keep illegal and/or vemomous herps.

Hmmmmm. Perhaps I stumbled on to something?

Stumbled on to what?!?!?!
Seamus keeps a few herps and quite possibly a hot or two
Seamus is looking out for his own collection as I am sure we all are
Seamus has decided to tone down

yep thats stumbling