Harlequin Hoard

(screenshots to be posted at end of explanation)

Bought two geckos from HH while shipping weather was closed.

Waited on shipping, asked to get updated weights and didn't receive a reply. When seller responded with updated weights, 15g gecko had not gained more than 1g and the other gecko's weight was simply listed as being under 10g.

Buyer found picture that showed 15g gecko was over 2 years old. Asked why this was not made known in sales ad or in subsequent communications. Seller proceeds to make excuses about feeding and temperatures affecting growth rates, and that it was acceptable for a gecko to take 3 years to reach 40g.

Buyer expresses concern about seller's husbandry and its effects on growth rate of gecko, but concerns are not satisfactorily answered.

When Buyer asks for refund, seller refuses, stating that their Terms of service doesn't require them to do so. Offered store credit for the one animal, though buyer had expressed concern with seller's husbandry and its effects upon their stock.

Buyer regretfully brings up a chargeback for the purchase made within the last 180 days from PayPal. Seller continues to not address buyer's issue and so buyer lets seller know that they have filed a charge back.

Seller then tells buyer to cancel chargeback saying that once it's canceled they'll send back shipping costs. Seller says they will post a negative BOI if buyer does not agree to seller's demands.

Buyer explains that they will cancel it as soon as an agreement is reached, extends figurative olive branch by expressing desire to work with seller and offers to take them up on a replacement animal.

Seller says that once the chargeback has been canceled, they will show seller replacement geckos. Buyer again tries to explain why canceling the chargeback before an agreement is reached is not a compromise. Seller sends buyer 4 example animals, still does not address that they did not disclose age/health/concerns of buyer about the gecko sold to them.

After buyer again asks to see a picture of replacement gecko, expressing desire to resolve the issue amicably, seller refuses. Seller states that they will post a negative BOI if buyer will not cancel their chargeback.

Buyer then regretfully informed seller that their hand was forced in posting a BOI of their own.

The buyer shouldn't have taken out the charge back in the first place. It says clearly in their TOS that you don't get a monetary refund if you decide not to go through with the sale after you pay. I think gaining 1g over the winter is just fine. Do you not live in the north? That is totally normal...

This is an unreasonable BOI, 100%.

OP also fails to mention she AGREED to terms which clearly state there is no cash refund for animals purchased, and that she was in breach of those terms by filing a buyback through paypal, instead of taking store credit or replacement animals.

I don't understand the point of this BOI at all. You OP are in breach of terms, you are still waiting on PAYPAL'S decision on which side is in the right, since you refused to have your animals shipped, and then cited "Items not Received" as your paypal dispute reason... and there is no reason at all to sling mud about the growth rates of someone else's animals or declare them unhealthy, when there is no proof that this is a true statement at all.

I've been in the crested gecko hobby for nigh on 8 years. And I can state with certainty that 2-3yrs to reach adulthood is perfectly normal for a reptile, especially a crested gecko.

The OP seems quite focused on the fact that she powerfeeds insects to force her animals to adult size in under 2 years, and her reason for this BOI is being disappointed that she bought from a seller that does not partake in the practice.

I will be posting followups with photo evidence of the perfectly healthy animals in my collection and their perfectly healthy "slow" growth rates.

I have bought from the Harlequin Hoard in the past, and we co-own an adult female. I personally live mere blocks away from Margaret and have been in her gecko room numerous times. She has a thriving roach colony and feeds nothing but PFMC, the most celebrated diet in current seasons. She has healthy animals, and cares for them a great deal.

This BOI is unfounded and its obvious the OP agreed to all terms when they suited her, and then showed her untrustworthy nature as soon as she decided she'd overspent.

I will personally never sell to this person after seeing this ridiculous post. If I can't put trust in a buyer keeping their end of the bargain, what is the point? What is to stop people from pulling this same stunt AFTER they've received their animals? Personally this is now my opinion of the OP of this thread.

I'm failing to see the issue here? I live in southern New Jersey and many of my geckos take 2-3 (sometimes even 4 years) to reach adult weight and length because of the weather (in the winter none of my geckos gain weight. At all. They maintain, but do not gain) and I do not feed insects, which would speed growth. If HH isn't feeding insects and is based in an area with a colder clime I can definitely understand a maintenance of or slower growth.

Is there any indication aside from an unsatisfactory weight gain for the duration the seller had the animals that they would be of ill health? Have you asked the seller to do a fecal on the animals, to check for parasites?

I also believe that the PayPal charge back was unfounded. The seller's ToS clearly state that there are no cash refunds offered if the buyer changes their mind. This is pretty standard.

The gecko is on the smaller side but not at as size that would be concerning to me. I've been in the hobby for several years and some geckos just do not grow as fast, especially when bugs are not fed frequently. I personally do not feed a lot of bugs and some of my geckos take 3 years + to reach breeding size. I see no problem with this.

I have purchased geckos from the Harlequin Hoard in the past and have nothing but good things to say about her. Margaret clearly made every effort to reach a reasonable agreement with the buyer that still protected her from being taken advantage of.

I have done plenty of research and it is my understanding 2 years, even from WC specimens, is a normal maturation rate. I tend to agree. Our different philosophies on "normal" rates are what seem to keep us apart. PDV quite literally collected and raised the first of this species and I tend to agree with his point of view, so a 16g 18 month old animal to me, will not reach adult hood at 2 or anywhere near 2.

I will provide links from 3 respected sources in the industry to site my sources:

Here is Brian Butler of Altitude Exotic's (Brian Butler raises thousands of these geckos and also agrees) care sheet.

Here is an article from Moonvalley Reptiles regarding growth rates.

"This (adulthood) stage is characterized by about 2 years of age" Taken from herpetocultural authority Philippe De Vosjoli's book on Crested Geckos.

If anyone is interested in the true story, with ACTUAL SCREEN CAPS here's the OP's own Bad Guy BOI. Jenn Blake/ Shaky Tail Exotics

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...d.php?t=528973

I still stand by the fact that THIS Boi thread is a joke, and merely a tantrum thrown by a poor customer who decided that the terms that she agreed to when the sale was made and for the duration of the 6mos holding time, were no longer applicable once she decided she'd rather just have her cash back, instead of taking one of the numerous resolutions offered (replacement animals, store credit).

Its clear by the refusal of these resolutions that the OP was just petulant about over-spending and would be pleased by nothing but her cash being refunded, as she was offered full siblings of the gecko she became "unhappy" with but still would not accept that as a resolution of this problem.

The Harlequin Hoard was more than reasonable to ask that the paypal dispute be cancelled before showing replacement animals, as the buyer (OP) had already proven herself to be untrustworthy. There is no school of thought that says that HH should have further wasted her time and energy to provide new photos of other animals, while the dispute was STILL open and hanging over her head. I would have done the same thing in her position, and waited until the OP closed the dispute before moving forward.

Link to Philippe De Vosjoli's book in which this information is given.

OP, so it is now MY understanding that you've never personally raised crested geckos. I am curious how many individual animals you have raised from hatchling size (2g or less) into full adulthood (45g+)

Quoting outdated articles isn't helping your case. Years ago crested geckos didn't mature larger than 30g. I have had over a dozen animals in my keeping that have reached an adult size of 50g or more. The biggest I had was a female that weighed nearly 80g.

The old schools of thought are just that....old. And comparing growth rates of WC animals that were field collected over a decade ago, to CB animals that have been raised and fed a nutritionally sound diet on a consistent basis, and not forced to fend for their food in the wild are apples to oranges.

Again, I'm curious, lets hear about your basis of comparison. How many animals have YOU PERSONALLY raised from hatchling size, into adult size?

I don't want to read quotes on a care sheet.

All of the other posters in this thread are speaking from first hand experience.

Yet you think an unfounded BOI posted on the basis of a handful of old caresheets justifies your absolute refusal to honor your word and the agreement you made to clearly stated terms? This thread is a joke.

A brief summary of what occurred ( expounded upon below in detail ) is that Jenn Blake purchased two crested geckos from me when shipping was not possible due to weather, I held them for her over the winter. When shipping time came around, Jenn refused shipment of her animals and asked for a refund. My terms of service ( which are agreed to by sending payment for any animal and which Jenn agreed to ) state that if you decide you no longer want your animals any amount sent becomes store credit. I do not do cash refunds. When I told this to Jenn, she filed a claim with paypal for the cost of one of the geckos, citing no items received after she refused shipment of her animals, and charged it out of my account. This is a blatant breach of my Terms of Service and I feel anyone doing business with her should be aware that she will not adhere to agreed to terms of service if she feels it does not suit her.

My transaction with Jenn Blake started on November 26, 2014. She purchased a surprise/mystery gecko from me for $100 + Shipping costs ( $45 ). I occasionally offer mystery geckos as animals which are normally valued from $150-$300. These are geckos who did not photograph well or who didn't fire up for photos when I was taking photos for sale ads. It's a nice way to grab a quality animal for cheaper than usual and particularly a nice deal for someone who already has a shipment coming. Jenn payed her balance promptly and everything was fine. Later ( February 19th ) she inquired about an animal named Blondie who I had listed for sale. Again she inquired if he was available and sent payment. Blondie was $200. Jenn then continued to be excited for her animals and contacted me from time to time to ask about shipping weather/her animals. Everything was fine and we waited until temps improved ( I'm located out of Wisconsin and the winter here is rather long and cold ) On April 23rd, I sent Jenn updated weights of her animals as she requested. She was happy to hear that her animals were doing well. We planned to ship her animals on Wednesday April 29th - unfortunately my car was not operable and I scheduled a FedEx pickup for my packages going out that day. My delivery driver showed up earlier than expected to pick up boxes before I had a chance to pack Jenn's box, and as such Jenn's animals did not get shipped on April 29th. I apologized to Jenn and asked her if Monday would be alright to ship out. She agreed.

On Monday at 4:21pm ( 10 minutes before I started packing my other outgoing shipments for the day ) Jenn contacted me and asked how old Blondie ( one of the animals she purchased ) was. She stated she would like to cancel her shipment and I replied before packaging her animals. Jenn then states that she would like a refund for her animals, I reply with "I'm sorry to hear that Jenn If you read my ToS though ( here and linked on my for sale page https://www.facebook.com/notes/137702393080224/ ) I don't do refunds and any amount sent instead will be turned into credit if you decide you don't want your animals." My Terms of Service are clearly linked from my sale ad page and state that by sending payment you agree to them. They have not been modified for some time. The clause stating that if you don't want your animals anymore any sent funds become store credit has been my policy for some time. Jenn then states that she was not aware that the Duchess x Rufio Male ( Blondie ) had not gained weight for me in some time and she feels she was not informed about this. This is a false statement - I have owned Blondie ( the rufio x duchess male ) since it was a 1.5 gram animal and it's currently 16 grams. She then states " I was told that he had not gained for you in the entire time you've had him" which is another false statement. Jenn also will not answer me when I ask WHO told her this false information. She then asks further questions regarding the growth of this animal and I immediately and transparently respond to any questions.

It is not unusual for cresteds in my care to take up to 3 years to attain adult size - often the first 20 grams of weight for my animals take the longest. I am very open about my husbandry practices and when asked I do state that I personally don't often/regularly feed bugs. I would rather them grow steadily and slowly. Blondie was a slower grower BUT not exceptionally so in my colony. I have had animals his age weigh 2x as much and I have also had animals his same age weigh significantly less on the same feeding schedule. This growthrate is not at all unusual among crested keepers who do not feed bugs on a regular basis and in talking with several other breeders they have confirmed that they also have animals growing at the same rates when not fed bugs regularly. Blondie is currently 18 months old and weighs 16.8 grams. It is not super unusual for an animal of his age to be at this weight when not feeding regularly on extra protein in addition to the provided Pangea Complete diet. Not a fast grower by any means but when geckos will not take bugs/extra protein they tend to mature slowly. His body condition is good and he is a healthy animal, slower growthrate does not equate to a health issue.

Jenn states that this gecko ( Blondie ) shows a stunted growthrate that was not disclosed and that this makes my ToS invalid. I disagree on both accounts. The animal which she purchased, Blondie, was a holdback and growout of mine. He was an animal that I fully intended to keep as a breeder until I decided I had enough males. Because of this fact, as I do with all of my other future breeders, I publicly posted updates on him from the time I received him. In no way was I " hiding" the age of the animal or his growthrate. Update photos are publicly posted on my page with time stamps when I shot updated photos. He was listed for sale by name because he was a holdback of mine and his name was recognizable to several people who have followed my business page. This was not an animal with no public record. I have included screenshots of these updates. Furthermore, his growthrate in my experience is by no means stunted and he will ( just like all of my other geckos ) reach a normal adult size somewhere between 40-60 grams.

She also states that she assumed I regularly fed bugs to my animals - no where on my business page or in any of my posts do I imply this. I have never fed a bug regular diet to my cresteds simply because I don't have time to dole out bugs on a regular basis and my geckos have never grown in a concerning way without them. Jenn never asked any questions regarding the care of my animals before her purchase or during our transactions until this point. She never stated the lack of bugs was an issue for her or important to her gecko raising.

Jenn then states that she is going to file a charge back for items not received. I inform her that if she is uncomfortable with the size of her animals, I'm happy to hold them further until they reach weights that she is comfortable at. I also offer Jenn that she can apply her store credit to another animal - I have several full siblings to Blondie who hatched in late 2014 and are small unsexed babies. She refuses any alternatives and files a chargeback on my paypal account for $200 ( the cost of Blondie ) and then goes further asks for a refund on her other purchased animal and shipping. Again, my Terms of Service CLEARLY state "if you do not want your animal the money sent becomes credit" and Jenn breaches them by filing a chargeback when I inform her as such. Jenn then tells me that she is "willing to accept $245 as total repayment as it's only fair a 25% restocking fee be taken from the full amount." This is not at all how my terms of service are structured. My terms CLEARLY state any amount sent becomes credit if the buyer does not want their animals and Jenn is in blatant disregard of them. I have been completely transparent with Jenn and promptly answered any questions she had on her animals. She will not accept a substitute animal nor will she abide by the terms that she agreed to by sending money to me ( The Harlequin Hoard ) and instead has chosen to file a chargeback and now demand further refunds ( which I do not give when people change their mind about wanting an animal )

Currently I have filed a claim with paypal against her dispute/chargeback. She stated she did not receive items payed for, I sent paypal screenshots of her refusing shipment of her items and state that buyer has refused shipment and that my terms of service do not give cash refunds. I'm sad to post this BOI but it is a true Seller Beware situation - if this woman does not like your Terms of Service she will break them and file a chargeback when she doesn't want her animals.

In the following posts I will include screencaps of; my messages with Jenn which take place from The Harlequin Hoard business page, screenshots of Blondie's(the animal in questions) for sale ad AS WELL AS screenshots with dates of the update photos which I have publicly posted on my page of this animal, a screenshot of Jenn's chargeback claim on paypal, and a screenshot ( timestamped ) of my terms of service. I have blocked out Jenn's personal address in the screenshot of the chargeback. Jenn's name is listed as Kakistocracy on the paypal screenshots.

I have created a Bad Guy Thread on Jenn Blake ( the OP ) for the fact that she has breached my Terms of Sale. I am very sad to see either of these BOI threads created and had hoped we could reach a resolution but I did not want to proceed with talk of replacement animals while the OP was still in breach of my ToS and has a claim open on my paypal as a threat. Here is a link to the other BOI which contains numerous screenshots of all of what I have described. http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...d.php?t=528973