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General Herp Talk Can't figure out where to post down in the other discussion forums? Too many options and too complicated? Well post your herp related messages here and to heck with it.

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Old 10-03-2018, 04:41 PM   #11
codie
Hi Lauren,
I appreciate the input.
While I'm not saying you're wrong, let me point out that Wood Frogs will use the thinnest cover in winter and allow themselves to freeze solid. They are then capable of "re-animating" in spring. In this case the frogs are certainly not trying to stay warm, but are in fact allowing themselves to reach extremely cold temps. So the matter can be fairly complicated. So in your case are the toads "trying to stay warm", or are they "trying to stay cold"?
Some turtles seek out water that won't freeze but is very cold and allow their metabolism to slow down so much that they do without normal breathing for the duration of winter. (There may some gas exchange in their throats and/or cloacae, but no lung respiration.)
I am glad to see people thinking. That is always a good thing.
So, Lauren, I don't know if you're right, but keep exercising your brain.
 
Old 10-03-2018, 04:49 PM   #12
Socratic Monologue
Bufo thermoregulate during hibernation, says empirical science in agreement with Lauren:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/3682705...n_tab_contents

No offense, but cross-species inference is pure speculation, and pales in comparison to scientific research.
 
Old 10-04-2018, 01:11 AM   #13
codie
John,
Of course you’re correct that cross species inferences are speculative, just as you are right that true scientific research is the preferred path to discovery.
But often speculation is the driving force to initiating research. Certainly an idea must exist before investigation can confirm or discount that thought. A question must be asked before an answer can be given. Even the most empirical of researchers must first begin with a question. Darwin “speculated” about evolution and then spent decades trying to scientifically prove it, That’s, in part, the point of my initiating this discussion. I have questions and I’m looking for answers.
Also cross species comparisons are not necessarily invalid. Animals facing similar strong evolutionary pressures can share common solutions. Look at hibernation/brumation itself. That response to weather extremes has developed in a wide range of unrelated animals. The mechanisms for doing so may not be identical in all cases, but the similarities exist. Perhaps dealing with inclement weather while simultaneously losing one’s food source has limited options (e.g. hibernation or migration).
Many animals fly and they do so in widely different ways with widely different evolutionary histories. But how they do so is restricted by laws of physics. As a result, there are certain characteristics that they must share. That fact invites comparison even though we may be comparing an albatross to a little brown bat to a honey bee.
Again, I’m not saying that I’m right or that anyone else is wrong. I certainly don’t have the credentials or the experience for that. And, yes, I am speculating. But that isn’t automatically a bad thing. It may open one’s eyes to different way of seeing common things.

And to Lauren,
If I seemed to imply you were wrong, I apologize. I brought up the info about Wood Frogs only to suggest that the similar observations can result in different conclusions. If the research John cited does in fact ( and I have doubt that it does) support you then GREAT! I have learned something! Thank you. That alone, I my mind, validates the opening of this discussion.
 

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