Info Air Canada Cargo killed my gargoyle gecko :( - Page 2 - FaunaClassifieds
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Canadian Board of Inquiry® This forum is provided exclusively for the discussion of specific persons or businesses in the Canadian herp industry. YOUR FULL NAME is required for each message you post.

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Old 04-16-2018, 03:35 PM   #11
Lucille
My letter was pretty intense. It may be that the refund was their way of replying.
 
Old 04-18-2018, 11:10 AM   #12
AaronSerio
Quote:
Originally Posted by Browse4Reptiles View Post
I see what you're saying and I respect your opinion, my issue is that a) Air Canada tampered with the packaging through poking holes in it (ruining the insulation that was put in place by the shipper) and b) they kept an animal in sub-zero temperatures when they had said originally that they wouldn't. Had Air Canada kept the cargo at the promised temperature and not tampered with the packaging, this would not have happened. Therefor, even if the shipper were responsible to some extent, I would still not consider Air Canada's hands clean in the matter. Promising heated cargo spaces that are in reality below freezing, and poking holes in packages, is completely unacceptable given what was being transported.
1. I'm happy you got a refund.

2. I also agree that no employee should tamper with the box/packaging of anything as that's never okay.

3. I don't think you understand how this animal died. You have no proof that they didn't put the animal in room temperature cargo holds. Reason being as I tried to explain earlier is the outside "room temperature" won't affect the inside of the box the way you describe. The inside the box temperatures fall on the shipper to ensure they are stable. It's the reason we use insulated shipping boxes so the outside temperatures won't change the inside temps every 3 minutes with a gust of wind. If you want to believe that ACC did this to you and the breeder isn't at all responsible, that's fine but it doesn't make it right.
 
Old 04-18-2018, 01:39 PM   #13
Mister Internet
Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronSerio View Post
3. I don't think you understand how this animal died. You have no proof that they didn't put the animal in room temperature cargo holds. Reason being as I tried to explain earlier is the outside "room temperature" won't affect the inside of the box the way you describe. The inside the box temperatures fall on the shipper to ensure they are stable. It's the reason we use insulated shipping boxes so the outside temperatures won't change the inside temps every 3 minutes with a gust of wind. If you want to believe that ACC did this to you and the breeder isn't at all responsible, that's fine but it doesn't make it right.
This ^ is going unnoticed, and is the larger question here. If the packing is done right, that box should fine after 2-3 hours in freezing temps outside. The insulation acts both ways... again, if it's done right.

I am dubious, having not seen pictures of the packing job, that it was "done right", because I've never bought from a "breeder" that uses 7-hour heat packs. That's because no breeder worth anything would bother with a 7-hour heat pack.

What I HAVE seen are "7 hour hand warmers"... if you go to Google and type in "7 hour heat pack", all the results will be the pocket hand warmers you buy in the hardware store or ski shops. These are NOT the same quality as the Uni-Heat 40, 60, 72 hour heat packs... they do not warm as consistently, they do not last very long at all, and they are not as "regulated" and can cause quite high spikes in temps. And then we hear the breeder included two of them, possibly more? For one animal? These are all adding up to either a rookie hobbyist passing themselves off as a breeder, or a bona fide breeder who just doesn't have a clue about shipping... because there's no reason whatsoever to include multiple high-quality heat packs unless you're shipping a larger animal in a large box and need coverage on two opposing corners.

I see a buyer that got the raw end of a deal from a seller that likely packed the animal badly using poor quality heat packs, and while Air Canada is likely paying this one off due to their employee's actions (which should not have happened), I'm not sure they are to blame. A well-packed box with a proper heat pack would have held stable in freezing exterior temps for a good while, and would not have been that badly compromised by a few small hole pokes. My money is on poor quality heat packs and poor packing job that basically left the animal uninsulated almost from the get-go.
 
Old 04-18-2018, 02:02 PM   #14
Browse4Reptiles
Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronSerio View Post
1. I'm happy you got a refund.

2. I also agree that no employee should tamper with the box/packaging of anything as that's never okay.

3. I don't think you understand how this animal died. You have no proof that they didn't put the animal in room temperature cargo holds. Reason being as I tried to explain earlier is the outside "room temperature" won't affect the inside of the box the way you describe. The inside the box temperatures fall on the shipper to ensure they are stable. It's the reason we use insulated shipping boxes so the outside temperatures won't change the inside temps every 3 minutes with a gust of wind. If you want to believe that ACC did this to you and the breeder isn't at all responsible, that's fine but it doesn't make it right.
Please believe whatever you want to, I'm not the type of person to try and dictate people's opinions. I am just sharing my story about this one experience I had with Air Canada Cargo. If this isn't the forum to do so, then my apologies; it seemed like this was an appropriate place for such a complaint. I've been trying to only post facts. I've been trying to be very unbiased with my posts. If I wasn't then my apologies and I will try harder in the future.

- Air Canada consider Air Canada Cargo responsible and are issuing live animal shipping training to the staff at Air Canada Cargo.
- Air Canada Cargo promised us near room temperature and the gecko was near-freezing temperature on arrival.
- Air Canada Cargo tampered with the box removing any insulation properties that the breeder provided. This is what was explained to me by an Air Canada representative and this is Air Canada's opinion after they investigated the geckos death.
- The gargoyle gecko and shipping box was inspected by Air Canada Cargo before they took it. I was told this by a representative at Air Canada, (I can post pictures of the shipping box at anyone's request.)
- Air Canada conducted an investigation, which is how they found out one of their staff members at Air Canada Cargo poked holes and then resealed them later with clear tape.
- Air Canada did not believe it to be the breeder's fault based on the evidence of their investigation.
- I found Air Canada Cargo's customer service with me was terrible and unsatisfactory.
- The Air Canada representatives were quite helpful and understanding. They promptly kept me informed with any new evidence they found for the investigation. They seemed quite keen on finding the root cause.

- The outside of the box on arrival was room temperature and the inside was freezing. This was after the holes were taped up by an employee at Air Canada Cargo.
- The box was able to insulate the freezing cold in so I assumed the shipping box would have been adequately insulated if the holes were not poked by an employee during transit. I could be wrong but it seemed pretty insulated as the inside was freezing and the outside was room temperature.
- Hypothetically if the breeder did cause the death by extremely improper packing or added ice cubes when no one was looking, Air Canada Cargo still tampered with my package ruining the insulation and was a headache to deal with.

I never stated the breeder is 100% innocent since it is impossible to know for sure. Sure, it's possible the breeder put ice cubes in with the gargoyle when the Air Canada Cargo staff member wasn't looking but that seems like a very unlikely scenario. I didn't mention this possible scenario earlier because it's so unlikely. The only way the breeder could have made the gecko that cold was by putting in ice cubes in with it on departure. Since Air Canada Cargo inspected the package and gecko before taking it, I highly doubt this was the case. An Air Canada representative told me the breeder was crying on the phone with them due to the death of the male gargoyle gecko she hatched and raised into adulthood. This is why I stated that I don't believe it was the breeder's fault since its a very unlikely scenario.

Based on the evidence in Air Canada's investigation, everyone involved believes this wasn't avoidable on the breeder's part. You are entitled to your opinion just as the representatives at Air Canada and I are.

I'm hoping that his death will help Air Canada improve. The representative at Air Canada told me that they will be working on improving live animal shipping in the near future.
 
Old 04-18-2018, 02:21 PM   #15
Browse4Reptiles
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Internet View Post
That's because no breeder worth anything would bother with a 7-hour heat pack.
I agree the non reptile heating packs were a bad idea on the breeders part. I do believe she was a good breeder otherwise. I can see why she may have decided to use them instead of stronger heating based on the information Air Canada Cargo gave us. Air Canada Cargo made it seem like the shipping box wouldn't be exposed to very much cold at all. It is possible, the breeder might be new to shipping. I think Air Canada Cargo should be able to help new shippers instead of leaving them to decode what room temperature means to Air Canada Cargo.
 
Old 04-23-2018, 12:18 AM   #16
BlueCrowned
I feel like the people insisting that it should have been insulated are missing the part where it was NOT insulated because HOLES were poked in the packaging by the shipper, thus breaching the insulation completely. How can you say that the package should have been insulated when poking holes in it would have caused it to lose any insulating properties either way?
 
Old 04-23-2018, 02:28 PM   #17
AaronSerio
Quote:
Originally Posted by Browse4Reptiles View Post
Please believe whatever you want to, I'm not the type of person to try and dictate people's opinions. I am just sharing my story about this one experience I had with Air Canada Cargo. If this isn't the forum to do so, then my apologies; it seemed like this was an appropriate place for such a complaint. I've been trying to only post facts. I've been trying to be very unbiased with my posts. If I wasn't then my apologies and I will try harder in the future.

- Air Canada consider Air Canada Cargo responsible and are issuing live animal shipping training to the staff at Air Canada Cargo.
- Air Canada Cargo promised us near room temperature and the gecko was near-freezing temperature on arrival.
- Air Canada Cargo tampered with the box removing any insulation properties that the breeder provided. This is what was explained to me by an Air Canada representative and this is Air Canada's opinion after they investigated the geckos death.
- The gargoyle gecko and shipping box was inspected by Air Canada Cargo before they took it. I was told this by a representative at Air Canada, (I can post pictures of the shipping box at anyone's request.)
- Air Canada conducted an investigation, which is how they found out one of their staff members at Air Canada Cargo poked holes and then resealed them later with clear tape.
- Air Canada did not believe it to be the breeder's fault based on the evidence of their investigation.
- I found Air Canada Cargo's customer service with me was terrible and unsatisfactory.
- The Air Canada representatives were quite helpful and understanding. They promptly kept me informed with any new evidence they found for the investigation. They seemed quite keen on finding the root cause.

- The outside of the box on arrival was room temperature and the inside was freezing. This was after the holes were taped up by an employee at Air Canada Cargo.
- The box was able to insulate the freezing cold in so I assumed the shipping box would have been adequately insulated if the holes were not poked by an employee during transit. I could be wrong but it seemed pretty insulated as the inside was freezing and the outside was room temperature.
- Hypothetically if the breeder did cause the death by extremely improper packing or added ice cubes when no one was looking, Air Canada Cargo still tampered with my package ruining the insulation and was a headache to deal with.

I never stated the breeder is 100% innocent since it is impossible to know for sure. Sure, it's possible the breeder put ice cubes in with the gargoyle when the Air Canada Cargo staff member wasn't looking but that seems like a very unlikely scenario. I didn't mention this possible scenario earlier because it's so unlikely. The only way the breeder could have made the gecko that cold was by putting in ice cubes in with it on departure. Since Air Canada Cargo inspected the package and gecko before taking it, I highly doubt this was the case. An Air Canada representative told me the breeder was crying on the phone with them due to the death of the male gargoyle gecko she hatched and raised into adulthood. This is why I stated that I don't believe it was the breeder's fault since its a very unlikely scenario.

Based on the evidence in Air Canada's investigation, everyone involved believes this wasn't avoidable on the breeder's part. You are entitled to your opinion just as the representatives at Air Canada and I are.

I'm hoping that his death will help Air Canada improve. The representative at Air Canada told me that they will be working on improving live animal shipping in the near future.
I have never once said your complaint isn't valid. It totally is. I think there's blame all around here and I knew from the start why you got the refund is because an employee screwed with the packaging which makes them a part of the problem. If they didn't it's likely you don't get a refund or the animal arrives alive.

I poke a single hole in my shipping boxes because the heat packs also need oxygen and I won't have the animal fighting with the heat packs for the oxygen in the box. The heat packs are likely to win.

My question is though, you likely don't have an answer, is how is the outside room temp and the inside "freezing"? Did they poke holes and blow freezing temps inside the box and seal it back up? How does that work? If the inside is freezing and the outside isn't but yet you've assumed they stuck the box in freezing temperatures?

As I said your complaint and experience is valid. So is mine and I've dealt with shipping with ACC many times. Just last year I shipped some snakes from Alberta to Toronto using ACC and when I opened the box one died and one lived. Sometimes it can just happen. The breeder took responsibility and issued me a credit and we shipped another snake with no problems via ACC.

Just to let you and anyone else also know, when shipping reptiles, as far as I know for "inspection" the person comes over, you open the box, show them the animal is there and then close it up and tape it. It's really basic and not their job to inspect how something is packed so it squarely falls on the shipper to ensure they've packed it correctly.
 
Old 04-23-2018, 04:35 PM   #18
BlueCrowned
Op stated there were two planes, one with below room temp and one at room temp. My guess is that the holes were poked, gecko flew on the cold plane, someone noticed the holes and taped them, cold air was sealed inside and the gecko then shipped on the room temp plane.
 
Old 04-23-2018, 04:55 PM   #19
Browse4Reptiles
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueCrowned View Post
Op stated there were two planes, one with below room temp and one at room temp. My guess is that the holes were poked, gecko flew on the cold plane, someone noticed the holes and taped them, cold air was sealed inside and the gecko then shipped on the room temp plane.
Thank you for clarifying. That is how it was explained to me by an Air Canada representative.
 
Old 04-30-2018, 05:37 PM   #20
AaronSerio
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueCrowned View Post
Op stated there were two planes, one with below room temp and one at room temp. My guess is that the holes were poked, gecko flew on the cold plane, someone noticed the holes and taped them, cold air was sealed inside and the gecko then shipped on the room temp plane.
Oh then I take back that it was partial fault of the shipper. It's 100% the shipper's fault.

1. When the shipper books with ACC you tell the person it's a reptile and everyone I've dealt with on the phone has always asked about ensuring I am planes that have heated cargo areas. They don't book me flights unless each flight does. Even then I still add the appropriate heat packs.

2. Since I would have known this the proper packing job probably would have kept the lizard alive.

3. I'm still happy you got a refund because an ACC employee broke the law by tampering with your package. If that wasn't the case then it's on the shipper.

4. It really sucks you lost an animal at all.
 

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