Dillon and Rick Wascher, www.safedartfrogs.com

I just scrolled through a number of the recent posts; and I didn't see much that addressed the subject of this thread. Please remember that we have discussion areas for general (including species specific) conversation. A greater effort at keeping things (more strictly) on topic would be much appreciated.

Originally Posted by Mike2014

Now to be in a hobby for 2 years...and nobody will sell them any animals knowing who they are. It would be pretty hard to breed to the point of 6,000 frogs. Also hard to believe this because they couldn't fill an order for 10 frogs that I called and asked for.

I wanted to see if I can clear up a point of confusion about this statement.

The Wascher's have made some pretty wild statements about he number of frogs they have in their inventory. Numbers that can't realistically be substantiated if you understand PDF breeding behaviors, space and food requirements for responsible care, and responsible care of the breeding pairs, ie not over breeding them.

A number of people called and made inquiries with no actual attempt to purchase, simply to ascertain wether or not the Wascher's actually had and were breeding the number of frogs they claimed. The Wascher's could not supply the quantities requested because they're not actually breeding the number of frogs they claim nor do they have the inventory they claim.

I believe this is what Mike was intending to convey that he was doing. I know that he has abandoned this thread, but It would be nice if he could clarify and set the record strait here.

Originally Posted by ZooKeeperDoug

Especially when you're dealing with children.

That is an important point.

Originally Posted by ZooKeeperDoug

I absolutely agree. I even chastised the OP for bringing it here and now especially for abandoning it. Essentially leaving it for the rest of us to try and clean up his mess. It really is more of a hobby business debate that doesn't fit within the intended purpose of the BOI.

The discussion can always be moved to the forums. Doug, maybe you can initiate a thread there. Wading through 150 pages on another forum is a daunting task, but a clear concise summary of how a frog business might be run to maximize safety to the families and especially the kids who might have frogs would be a worthwhile contribution, if you have the time to do that.

Originally Posted by Lucille

That is an important point.



The discussion can always be moved to the forums. Doug, maybe you can initiate a thread there. Wading through 150 pages on another forum is a daunting task, but a clear concise summary of how a frog business might be run to maximize safety to the families and especially the kids who might have frogs would be a worthwhile contribution, if you have the time to do that.

Thanks Lucille. I believe we got off on the wrong foot with an overly combative series of posts. I'm trying to doing my best within my limited ability to, due to the rules and expectations of this forum, address yours and the concerns of others about our statements. My biggest issue is that much of what has been discussed and transpired is only archived somewhere that a moderator here has expressly said is unacceptable.

This thread really got started off wrong, and if want to reinforce again, my personal feeling that it has no place in the BOI and isn't a valid topic for the BOI. Mike picked a fight he seemingly had no intention of finishing.

I will consider your other idea.

Originally Posted by ZooKeeperDoug

I wanted to see if I can clear up a point of confusion about this statement.

The Wascher's have made some pretty wild statements about he number of frogs they have in their inventory. Numbers that can't realistically be substantiated if you understand PDF breeding behaviors, space and food requirements for responsible care, and responsible care of the breeding pairs, ie not over breeding them.

A number of people called and made inquiries with no actual attempt to purchase, simply to ascertain wether or not the Wascher's actually had and were breeding the number of frogs they claimed. The Wascher's could not supply the quantities requested because they're not actually breeding the number of frogs they claim nor do they have the inventory they claim.

I believe this is what Mike was intending to convey that he was doing. I know that he has abandoned this thread, but It would be nice if he could clarify and set the record strait here.

The op stated that "they couldn't fill an order for 10 frogs that I called and ASKED FOR". I don't see any confusion there.

Originally Posted by Chris Kennard

The op stated that "they couldn't fill an order for 10 frogs that I called and ASKED FOR". I don't see any confusion there.

I don't know how to any better explain it.

Calling and asking for something is different than actually placing an order. I'm confident it was a fact finding mission to see if they would actually be able to provide the number of frogs they claim they could. In this case, it seems, that though they boast about crazy inventory, they could not even fulfill a relatively small simple order.

Let's say for example, someone says they have thousands of Gila monsters for sale! all captive bred in the past two years. Knowing what I know about Gilas, this sounds preposterous, so based on that suspicion, I call, pretending to be an interested buyer.

me calls gilARTlizards.com

Hi, I'd like to purchase 10 Gila Monsters

GilARTlizards.com - oh were sorry, we can't fulfill an order that large

I would really like Mike to explain himself. The confusion lies I think, in that, you and others think he actually placed or intending to place an order, when, in the context of what some have done in the PDF hobby have done is to pose as interested buyers, in order to see what we can expose. It was not very hard to find out in fact that they don't have anywhere near the number of frogs they claim.

Originally Posted by ZooKeeperDoug

I don't know how to any better explain it.

Calling and asking for something is different than actually placing an order. I'm confident it was a fact finding mission to see if they would actually be able to provide the number of frogs they claim they could. In this case, it seems, that though they boast about crazy inventory, they could not even fulfill a relatively small simple order.

Let's say for example, someone says they have thousands of Gila monsters for sale! all captive bred in the past two years. Knowing what I know about Gilas, this sounds preposterous, so based on that suspicion, I call, pretending to be an interested buyer.

me calls gilARTlizards.com

Hi, I'd like to purchase 10 Gila Monsters

GilARTlizards.com - oh were sorry, we can't fulfill an order that large

I would really like Mike to explain himself. The confusion lies I think, in that, you and others think he actually placed or intending to place an order, when, in the context of what some have done in the PDF hobby have done is to pose as interested buyers, in order to see what we can expose. It was not very hard to find out in fact that they don't have anywhere near the number of frogs they claim.

You're "confident" it was a fact finding mission? Or you're sure it was? Sounds like Mike has explained himself. To you.

Originally Posted by Chris Kennard

You're "confident" it was a fact finding mission? Or you're sure it was? Sounds like Mike has explained himself. To you.

Your assumptions are incorrect. Mike has not specifically explained this or anything to me. Beyond him pointing out that he started this thread, and me informing him that I thought that was I'll advised and that he needs to back up his statements here, we have had no other direct communication.

I do see what you're trying to do though. Nice try.

Originally Posted by ZooKeeperDoug

Your assumptions are incorrect. Mike has not specifically explained this or anything to me. Beyond him pointing out that he started this thread, and me informing him that I thought that was I'll advised and that he needs to back up his statements here, we have had no other direct communication.

I do see what you're trying to do though. Nice try.

No, you don't. I don't believe for one second that he hasn't "specifically" explained anything to you. I've read your well written and well crafted posts. You guys like to play detective? Great! Show us a victim. You? Your pal Mike? Proof? For the last time, YOUR IN THE WRONG FORUM! I'm sure everyone is impressed by your little sting operation. We get it. They don't have enough frogs to sell you guys. Oh, and all tje kiddies out there who are viewing...SANITIZE YOUR HANDS AFTER HANDLING ANY AND ALL REPTILES AND AMPHIBIANS! Duh.

I think Doug and I more than once both stated this should not have been put in the BOI but since it was here we would at least fill in some back ground, if that bothers you maybe you should not view this thread. It seems you think you know what was said behind the scenes, you do not. It seems you have no understanding at all that some of us from the frog community came into this thread in an attempt to clean up what Mike started. Do we in the frog community have a problem with this family/company, that's a big yes. They potentially if successful with sales could do damage that would take a long time to undo if it ever could.
Nothing more needs be said about these people on the BOI, I will not comment in this thread again but at least you all know why our community has taken this stance.