Billy Gangemi, Russian Tortoises, HELP!

Lynn, Greg and Kevin...spot on!

Originally Posted by lydiacourtney

Billy,

This isn't slander. You're a butt head.

Lydia

Comments like this will hurt, more than help you here. You have great feedback with good advice and have been offered a refund or replacement animals. What more could you ask for?

Originally Posted by Herpin Man

Lydia, it is unfortunate what you are going through with your tortoises. I do not keep this species, so am unable to offer any care advice. However I do have some suggestions that you may find useful, with respect to herp transactions in general:
- When there is a problem, notify the seller immediately, if for no other reason than to document that there was a problem when it was received. The seller has no control over how the buyer keeps the animal, and what may happen to the animal, days or weeks down the road. They are naturally going to be skeptical when a problem is brought to their attention a month later.
- If you are buying wild caught herps, always assume that there will be health issues. They go through a great deal of stress before you receive them, and even if the seller has them active and feeding, they should be seen by a qualified reptile vet. Also assume the animals have internal parasites, and have the vet do a fecal check. There is always a risk of loss or health issues with any herp, but especially more so with wild caught, despite everything you and your vet do.
- When you contact a seller with a problem, be clear, concise, and courteous. This is no different than returning an item at a retail store- you get better results when you don't immediately take an adversarial approach. I'm sorry, but in your texts, you gave an impression of being combative very quickly. Your urgency was clear enough, but it was also clear that the seller wasn't immediately able to text you detailed husbandry advice.
- Although a good seller will generally be willing to give husbandry advice, don't rely solely on them. Take it upon yourself to thoroughly research the needs of the given species. With a commonly kept species such as Russian tortoise, you should be able to find lots of information without having to rely on the seller.
- Do not demand information that really isn't relevant to the transaction. Many businesses do not give out information such as where they purchase the products that they sell; herp sellers are no different. Knowing the sellers source in Ukraine isn't going to help your tortoises.
- When the seller offers a refund or replacement, just accept. You are unlikely to ever get more than that. I realize you were just looking for advice, but it should have been clear that you weren't going to get it; at least not by text, then and there.
- If the seller misrepresented the animals, present them with the evidence to that effect, preferably in a non-accusatory tone. (Tagging your post with "wildlife smuggler" is not likely to be productive) Maybe, instead of being out and out fraud, it was a miscommunication on somebody's part. In this case, these sound like wild tortoises that nobody knows the true age of. I don't personally know the seller, but I don't know your vet either.

If I were in your situation, I would accept the sellers offer of a refund or replacement. I would research proper care of Russian tortoises, including discussing it with other hobbyists who have experience with this species. And, if necessary, I would consider getting a second opinion from another reptile vet. If dealing with these sorts of problems is more than you want to get into, I would also recommend buying captive bred specimens only from this point on.
Good luck.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

I don't know where this sense of entitlement is coming from that appears in animal transaction these days but its getting out of hand.

Originally Posted by Gangemiw

Hi Lydia I spoke with my lawyer. Tagging a post associated with my name as a wildlife smuggler is considered a defamation of character. Along with publically sharing texts is highly looked down upon. I don't know you or your family but i think in the future when you purchase animals do your homework. These tortoises are best kept cool and arid. All I can do as a a seller is offer you a refund or animals back. The bottom line is you should have contacted me immideately after purchasing the animals, instead of waiting so long. Please let it be known that if the harrasment continues I'm going to take further legal action. Thank you.

Hopefully your offer stills stands and this will be rectified. I have a feeling you're on the right side of the fence. Hope I'm right. You will always have "involved" customers. You know this...

Originally Posted by DavidBeard

Couldn't have said it better myself.

I don't know where this sense of entitlement is coming from that appears in animal transaction these days but its getting out of hand.

Yes! Cheers mate!

Originally Posted by Big Time Reptiles

Lydia,
I'm not a Vet, but what I can tell you is Ceftazidime is the drug of choice by some of the most recognized Vets in the Tortoise & Turtle world, one I know personally & have both volumes of his books on reptile medicine & surgery is Dr. Doug Mader, in Marathon, FL. at Marathon Veterinary Hospital, 5001 Overseas Hwy. 305-743-7099 24hrs.

They might could help your Vet with your tortoise's issues??

I read the conversation between you & Billy, flagyl & panacur isn't going help the upper respiratory.

He also states he'll refund you in full or replace the tortoises at the next show...

JMHO, I'd take the refund, why would any one want to take on another sick critter....

When dealing with importers, or those who buy and flip from importers, these are the chances you take...

Best of luck to the remaining tortoise....

Lynn Peterson
Big Time Reptiles

Hi again, Lynn,

Thanks again for offering advice, as opposed to turning this into an opportunity to be the poster child for Dunning-Kruger syndrome as some dealers I could (and have) named.

Let me tell you what I did, so maybe you can tell me what else to do, if you know. Otherwise, I will take the girl (named Taquito, because she looks like a little taco!) back to the vet or give yours in Florida a call.

Day 1 is as BillyW said, they both seemed fine and despite seeming like they needed a good meal, were fine.

Day 2 both were Wheezing and had runny noses.

2 days post purchase (day 3) we were at the vet. We were given Baytril and Flagyl which we administered to both tortoises faithfully for the next 10 days as prescribed.

While we were there the Vet said: underweight, worms, 10 years old as opposed to the 4 years old that BillyG told us, and wild caught. In retrospect, I feel like a fool, but we were at Repticon, and my daughter Ellie had saved money for a Russian Tortoise. We had looked everywhere and if there were others there, I didn't see them. We are new reptile owners, I'm sure this doesn't come as a surprise.

They both did ok for a couple of days, but then tanked. Both were worsening daily, so by the end of treatment, we decided, despite the original $270 bill to return to the vet. This time the vet was very concerned (and so was I) neither was eating, Torterra had never pooped...from day 1, so that was definitely a pretty big concern, both Torty's were weak, runny noses, were not eating and eyes were swollen shut. I can't figure out what we did wrong to make the eyes sick, except for put them on coco coir bedding??

This time, the doctor prescribed a tougher regimen of meds. Baytril, Azithromycin, Fortaz shots, Saline shots, and 6 ml of force fed Oxbow per day. He lasted until this morning. Poor thing.

Lydia

Chris Kennard,

As I dug a hole and buried my daughters pet today, with her crying and crying...I was wondering the very same thing. How could someone make up for selling underweight, worm infested, respiratory distress, and wild caught animals to unsuspecting first time tortoise owners? it is a very good question. Never did I once think that having an original attitude of "cover your ass" instead of "help the new pet owner" would be the reply. Never did I think that not having compassion for the animals, and suggesting that any refund or replacement was better than speaking patiently and respectfully to the consumer (read: pet owner, or your target customers) about how to help the poor animal.

Lydia

Billy,

You know, some things are not about money. I'll be glad for the refund, thanks. My concern, honestly, is all the other tortoises you had under the table. Did they come from the same import? Are they sick? Have they died? How many were there? Were they all wild caught? If so, is that even legal, buying wild caught tortoises from the Ukraine?

Additionally, Billy, you should know that I had only certain choices for tags, and the closest one to "wild caught" was "wildlife smuggler." So, sorry for the tag, but... I think unless you can tell the dealer you bought them from, which you refused to do, you may as well be admitting that wild caught is the case.

Lydia

Billy,

From where in the Ukraine did these tortoises come? Who sold them to you? I think it's fair for a customer to want to know from whence their pet came. You, however, blocked me when I asked the question, leading me to believe that you had something to hide. If you have nothing to hide, then give the information up.

Lydia

right? geesh!

Lydia