Billy Gangemi, Russian Tortoises, HELP!

Originally Posted by lydiacourtney

Chris Kennard,

As I dug a hole and buried my daughters pet today, with her crying and crying...I was wondering the very same thing. How could someone make up for selling underweight, worm infested, respiratory distress, and wild caught animals to unsuspecting first time tortoise owners? it is a very good question. Never did I once think that having an original attitude of "cover your ass" instead of "help the new pet owner" would be the reply. Never did I think that not having compassion for the animals, and suggesting that any refund or replacement was better than speaking patiently and respectfully to the consumer (read: pet owner, or your target customers) about how to help the poor animal.

Lydia

You really want to go there, Lydia? Did your daughter do research, buy the animal, send it to the vet etc.? What are you doing to save the millions of "poor animals" around the world? Or is the only one you're concerned about, the ones you payed for without doing any homework on? The phrase, as you so haphazardly put it, "cover your ass", applies to you as well. If your child was disappointed, IT'S YOUR FAULT!

Originally Posted by lydiacourtney

This time, the doctor prescribed a tougher regimen of meds. Baytril, Azithromycin, Fortaz shots, Saline shots, and 6 ml of force fed Oxbow per day. He lasted until this morning. Poor thing.

Lydia

First let me say, how very sorry I am to hear about the last little one passing!

I'm familiar with all you mentioned as far as the cocktail in the injection, the Fortaz is Ceftazidime. Again, I'm NOT a Vet, but what the little tortoise was given seems a little much in my opinion.

Billy said he'll give you a refund, take it, and move on, that's really the best advice I can give, dwelling on it, isn't going to bring the tortoises back, or put a smile on your children's face. Chalk it up to experience, and move on to something more positive.

Again, Truly Sorry about those little tortoises, and your loss.

Lynn Peterson
Big Time Reptiles

Originally Posted by Big Time Reptiles

Billy said he'll give you a refund, take it, and move on, that's really the best advice I can give, dwelling on it, isn't going to bring the tortoises back, or put a smile on your children's face. Chalk it up to experience, and move on to something more positive.

Lynn is right. You're not the first person to unknowingly buy a sick wild-caught critter that dies shortly after an expo, and you won't be the last. With many species you really need to ask the seller whether the critters are captive-bred, farmed, or wild-caught.

There is absolutely no excuse these days for ignorance when it comes to not knowing how to care for an animal as common as a Russian Tortoise. Keepers these days have SO many resources when it comes to husbandry practices its not even funny. These are not the dark ages of heat rocks and fish tanks any more.

Take responsibility and LEARN before you buy an animal and then try to play the victim. Are there tons of shady people out there peddling sick imported animals? absolutely. That's still no reason to throw caution to the wind and make impulse purchases for your kid and attempt to get sympathy for your mistakes.

I'm sorry that the torts were sick and that they died despite your best efforts and care. It sounds like you did everything you could. However, I don't think you can ask for much more than a refund which is what the seller offered.

Unless you are sure you are buying captive bred herps, you need to be prepared for the possibility that they are wild caught. Research ahead of time is key since it can be hard to do at an expo especially if you have a kiddo that has latched onto a new pet. Many, many species are widely captive bred, but others are almost certain to be wild caught, or farmed (ie basically hatched in the wild), and with imports - well you are at the mercy of a string of individuals who may or may not be disclosing their wild caught status. The best thing is do figure out first if CB animals are available and who the reputable sellers are. If it's nearly impossible to find CB versions of the animal you want - rethink that animal as your choice.

Given that you didn't contact the seller right away, and that there was more research you could have done before buying (not criticizing, just pointing out there is a learning curve in this hobby), I don't think demonizing the seller is really your best avenue for a solution.

Losing pets is so hard for kids, but they are resilient (the kids, not the pets! unfortunately). This can be a really good family learning experience on how to do research on a pet and how it can be difficult and how we can overcome those obstacles.

Hi Greg!

Thanks for your reply and your very tactfully offered advice. I appreciate your interest. Please be aware that despite a good deal of research, building and setting up an 8 foot by 2 foot enclosure with the suggested lighting and substrate, taking these torts to the vet twice and doing everything in my power for about a month straight to try to get them healthy, these poor tortoises are still.. well.. 1 is very sick and 1 dead. My research was actually exhaustive. Both of my daughters and I were seeking answers like crazy, so don't think we didn't to our best to educate ourselves.

Please let me be clear. I had NO idea they were wild caught. Is this even legal? I know I wouldn't have bought them had I known, because it's kind of a no brainer that wild animals should stay in the wild, unless they need to be rescued. If this is, indeed, not legal, isn't my question about where they came from valid? If I have accidentally or incidentally become involved in illegal activity, specifically the sale of imported, wild caught Russian Tortoises, isn't it logical that I would want to know this?

The average customer at a reptile convention is like me. Not as educated about herpetology as those who are selling. Do you want for the people who are buying the product to apologize for not knowing about the product, which in this case, is not only a THING but an actual living little guy? Don't you think it would be ideal if the breeders tried to see it from the consumers point of view a little bit? Or, if the customer has questions, concerns, fears, or lacks knowledge, is the best plan to tell them how exhausted you are by all of these silly questions?

With regard to the immediacy of my texts. if you look at the time of the texts, you will see that I didn't send another text for 4 hours after he didn't see my 1:37 PM text. Four hours is a long time to wait when your cute little guy is wheezing away, just inches from Tortoise Valhalla.

So, let me sum up.

Yes, retroactively, i agree that I wish I had been better prepared for this pet, but as Billy said at the table, "No one could have a problem with a tortoise!!"

Yes!! We should have researched more! We researched a lot, but clearly not enough, and I take responsibility for that.

Yes, my tone with Billy was impatient and it probably shouldn't have been. It really pissed me off that the very first thing he did was try to cover his ass, rather than have compassion for the animal and the owners. I see that this annoyance came through.

Yes, you are right, I am not likely to get anything back from Billy aside from another tortoise or my money back, and probably neither of those. My hope in addressing this with him is that a little spark will begin within him and he will see that it isn't ok to accept wild caught animals. I know that in other areas of herpetology he has the greatest respect for the animals, but this right doesn't undo the wrong of the suffering of these tortoises. I grew up on a farm. Hunting, fishing, animal care and butchering was all part of it, so I understand life and death of animals, but I was always taught to respect the animal. I've hand fed more baby bunnies and birds than you can shake a stick at and I have had my arm up to the elbows in a sheep's hoo haw pulling out a lamb. We didn't flush deer out of a woods, but relied on our hunting skill, and gave the strongest a chance at survival. We didn't take from nature anything that we could not put back or put into nature anything that would harm it. I see that there are beginnings of that morality in Billy, (for instance his little possum friend, or his respect for snakes and their handling) but he isn't 100% there yet. To be honest, I think he has great potential but not yet the maturity to make the right moral choices.

I agree that a second opinion is in order, and I really appreciate that Lynn was willing to send me the info. for the vet in Florida and the other medication. I'm planning to contact that vet tomorrow to see what is known about the med combo we are using, and possibly put him in touch with my vet.

I hope none of this comes across as rude... I am certain that no matter what I say in this forum, I am already done for, but to be fair, my concern is really for the animals, and that's where we all should be.

Lydia

Hi Melinda,

Yes, of course you are right. I am so sad to have learned this the hard way. The worst was watching the little guy gasp for air. He didn't deserve any of it.

Lydia

Chris,

Yes, let's go there.

You might be surprised to find out what I do for animals around the world, and how much research I did, but it seems you made up your mind about me already. It's interesting that the purchaser has more responsibility for the terrible practice of the vendor than the vendor himself.

For instance, if you went to McDonalds and they sold you a burger that gave you food poisoning, and then McDonalds said, "well, you knew that our food was unhealthy, so it's your fault." You'd be left thinking.. "yeah, I knew your food might give me gas, but I didn't think i would vomit in the toilet all night.." That's what this is like for me... I knew there would be a learning curve, but I didn't anticipate $500 in veterinary bills, in addition to all of the lights, building enclosures, hides, proper moisture and substrate, etc. and then this heartbreaking downward spiral to death. That was like an ebola burger from McDonalds.

That said, believe me...I am hating myself today more than you can imagine, for allowing myself to be fooled. I was so hopeful and excited about adding two new family members to our home, and I really f-ed it all up. I am guilty and ashamed that I didn't think to ask more questions, and check it out in greater depth prior to purchase. I wish I could have saved his life and I really did not enjoy watching him struggle for air a full 40 years or more prior to his life expectancy. You can bet I won't do that again, and that I will feel the guilt for quite some time.

Is it possible that you are a friend of Billy and that as a result your wish to protect your friend supersedes your concern for the animals? You seem awfully fast to point fingers, and while I have brought up what I feel is a valid point, I can't understand why you are coming at me so hard if you don't have a horse in this race.


Lydia

Lynn,

Again, thank you for the good advice. I'm glad to hear that the Fortaz is the right thing. You are, of course, right, that I should move on to more positive thoughts, and I will try to do this.

It's hard for me not to want to save every animal... I'm sure you get it.

Lydia

Theresa Moon,
(what a great name)

Thanks. Yes, a learning curve is a good way to put it.

Lydia