Billy Gangemi, Russian Tortoises, HELP!

Originally Posted by Lucille

When you received them, they appeared fine.
Then they became ill. You took them to the vet. (Lydia, could you please scan and post all the vet papers including the findings, weights, and diagnosis?)
A month later, you informed your seller who is still willing to refund.



My advice, when an animal continues to decline after a vet visit, is to seek a second opinion. I would think that in vet circles a second opinion is probably regarded the same was as it often is in the medical world: Not a vote of no confidence but rather asking for a perhaps different perspective that may be of value to the patient.

Even the best seller is not ordinarily a vet, so placing this burden on your seller is not fair in my opinion. He did everything he could which is offer a refund.


I really think that is not fair. The vendor first heard of your turtle woes a month after the sale, and you yourself said they looked fine on arrival which means to me they looked fine on departure from the seller.
You claim that they were underweight (please post weights, diagnosis, etc. from the vet) yet you said they looked fine on arrival.

Please post the vet findings.

This is an excellent post containing great advice. It could easily be argued that the torts became ill in your care, especially if there was no complaint or issue raised before that one month of time. Be clear that I am not insinuating this, just presenting the thought. If I were to sell someone a seemingly healthy animal (whether that is true or not...at this time there is no concrete proof of the torts being anything but) and it had perished after one month and the buyer had little or no communication with me in between, I would be very suspect as to what happened and hesitant to admit fault. Saying all that, I feel it should be disclosed to the buyer if something is imported or wild caught instead of assuming they know. That to me is a matter of personal ethics, though, and may differ between sellers. After 1 full month the seller is still offering a refund...that's almost unheard of. He is doing the right thing by offering a full refund or replacement, and like it or not, he does not have to disclose the exact source of where these tortoises were imported from or who they were imported through, at least not in my opinion. Although I admire your evident passion, it may be wise to give up the crusade, and perhaps instead accept the refund/replacement and do your very best to educate others moving forward. It would be a much more effective, favourable and admirable method of reaction to this situation.

Lydia,
If, or when you get ready to purchase any other tortoises, I would be happy to help. Contact me when ready, and I'll put you in touch with a reputable breeder, that will sell to you at what they would sell them to me for, usually 25% or less.

If this would work for you, I'd be happy to make it happen.

Lynn Peterson
Big Time Reptiles

How stunningly unfair, Lydia, to label the vendor with "wildlife smuggler", when you did not bother to do the very least bit of research to show that these turtles are absolutely routinely imported, a fact which Kevin was able to demonstrate is so easy to obtain you almost have to be avoiding the information to not know it.

Originally Posted by tim brophy

Take the refund he has offered and buy a captive born tortoise from someone else. There are several breeders who sell tortoises here on Fauna that are captive born. They have very good, well written web sites with descriptions on care, maintenance, etc. Buy a captive born baby and move forward. This was a learning experience. You learned and it is over.

Good idea.
-Lydia

Originally Posted by Big Time Reptiles

Lydia,
If, or when you get ready to purchase any other tortoises, I would be happy to help. Contact me when ready, and I'll put you in touch with a reputable breeder, that will sell to you at what they would sell them to me for, usually 25% or less.

If this would work for you, I'd be happy to make it happen.

Lynn Peterson
Big Time Reptiles

Thanks so much, Lynn, I will. I feel like we need to do all we can to see that the second one lives, and then once I am certain that we are clear of any transmittable diseases or that I can quarantine for 6 months, I will send you a pm.

Lydia

Originally Posted by srsb

How stunningly unfair, Lydia, to label the vendor with "wildlife smuggler", when you did not bother to do the very least bit of research to show that these turtles are absolutely routinely imported, a fact which Kevin was able to demonstrate is so easy to obtain you almost have to be avoiding the information to not know it.

I have explained this earlier in the thread, but when I went to type in "wild caught" as a tag, the only similar option was "wildlife smuggler." That said, I did have questions about wildlife smuggling laws that were thankfully answered earlier in the thread by Rachel:

[INDENT][/indent]"Illegality only arises if the animal was protected by CITES appendix I or II and shouldn't have been imported, or if it's on the ESA and shouldn't be traded (Lacey act). However, your local state and city may have all sorts of rules that you should know about. Example: you can't have corn snakes in Georgia, or red eared sliders in Oregon. So you need to know your local rules. If you don't know those, more research is in order."

I don't think that asking questions about smuggling is the same as labeling Billy, although at this point I certainly do suspect something based on the sketchy-ness of his entry into Repticon under the assumed name of another reputable business.

I, too, was stunned by the number of people on this thread who were just a-ok with people pulling animals out of the wild and selling them. That, to me, seems stunningly immoral.

Lydia

Originally Posted by lydiacourtney

My daughter, who volunteers rescuing reptiles and birds of prey at a nature center, was and is under the impression that in Maryland, where we live, wild caught animals are illegal.

Wild-caught native turtles are not legal to keep in Maryland as pets, but wild-caught non-native imports are legal. The DNR site isn't well worded and it does leave the impression that all wild-caught turtles are illegal to keep as pets, which is not the case.
http://dnr.maryland.gov/wildlife/Pag...waturtles.aspx

Originally Posted by lydiacourtney

Maybe I was being naive to think that I could trust a reptile breeder at Repticon...

Expo promoters typically do not vet vendors, they will rent table space to anyone who pays for it. It is your job as a buyer to research the seller. You can find a good seller, such as the one who sold you your beardie, set up next to a vendor with sick, mite-ridden critters on death's door. Which leads to...

Originally Posted by lydiacourtney

I think part of the reason that I find Billy so untrustworthy was the process I had to go through to find him. When my daughter looked up the tables at the Repticon site so that she could reach him to ask these questions a week ago, his table was listed under Eastern Exotics. So, we found this company online and they were also pretty unhappy with him, because they didn't know him, and he had "borrowed" their name in order to get a table at Repticon. Luckily, they had done the legwork to find him to request that he stop using their name, and so Repticon was aware of his true identity. I still have no idea what his actual business is called, and he doesn't seem very forthcoming with the name of his business, his number or any other information. That's sketchy, to me.

I also find that extremely shady. It blows away the "contact the seller immediately if there is a problem" advice (which of course you should do) since you had no way of knowing who you were really dealing with when you purchased the turtles.

While tables I1-I4 were apparently for Eastern Exotics based on Repticon Baltimore's web site those were the ones Billy Gangemi took, yes? And Eastern Exotics wasn't even vending there that day, yes? If so I'd be really ticked someone was selling sick critters under my business name - which makes me wonder how many other complaints they've received.

Originally Posted by Andy_G

This is an excellent post containing great advice. It could easily be argued that the torts became ill in your care, especially if there was no complaint or issue raised before that one month of time. Be clear that I am not insinuating this, just presenting the thought. If I were to sell someone a seemingly healthy animal (whether that is true or not...at this time there is no concrete proof of the torts being anything but) and it had perished after one month and the buyer had little or no communication with me in between, I would be very suspect as to what happened and hesitant to admit fault. Saying all that, I feel it should be disclosed to the buyer if something is imported or wild caught instead of assuming they know. That to me is a matter of personal ethics, though, and may differ between sellers. After 1 full month the seller is still offering a refund...that's almost unheard of. He is doing the right thing by offering a full refund or replacement, and like it or not, he does not have to disclose the exact source of where these tortoises were imported from or who they were imported through, at least not in my opinion. Although I admire your evident passion, it may be wise to give up the crusade, and perhaps instead accept the refund/replacement and do your very best to educate others moving forward. It would be a much more effective, favourable and admirable method of reaction to this situation.

I agree, Andy. If you take a look at post #26, you will see that I am truly more angry with myself than anyone for not asking better questions. I really felt that Repticon was where one went to make sure they were dealing with good breeders, and I was really trying to get a pet from somewhere other than Petco, because of some documentaries I watched on the reptile breeding facilities at those bigger stores. I'm left feeling that I caused this tortoise to be pulled from it's home, stressed to the max, become ill and die. I'm not blaming anyone but myself, and I feel... well.. terrible. Despite the aggression from some on this site, I love animals more than most humans, so i think we are coming from the same place.

The difference, to me, lies in the admission of a moral fault. Should I have researched more and different things? Yes.

Should I have tried to find Billy sooner rather than later? Yes, actually I did try a week earlier, but since the company he went as didn't exist, it took a lot of doing to find him.

Should I know every single thing about tortoises prior to getting one... I'm not sure, especially when it comes to the breeder's job. I would like to think that there are laws in place to protect these animals which would vastly reduce numbers of wild caught animals from being sold. Poor torty.

Should animals be treated as things? is the question I think I was seeking an answer to, here, and it appears that many here, despite their apparent love and passion for the animals, seem to be missing some COMpassion for these reptiles. This has been quite a discouraging find.

You are right, however, that my little crusade will probably accomplish little.
Thanks for the advice.
Lydia

Originally Posted by bcr229

Wild-caught native turtles are not legal to keep in Maryland as pets, but wild-caught non-native imports are legal. The DNR site isn't well worded and it does leave the impression that all wild-caught turtles are illegal to keep as pets, which is not the case.
http://dnr.maryland.gov/wildlife/Pag...waturtles.aspx

Thank you for this clarification. This is exactly the answer to my prior confusion.

Do you happen to know what the wildlife turtle and snake capture laws are in other states? Are they similar to Maryland or are all states different?


Expo promoters typically do not vet vendors, they will rent table space to anyone who pays for it. It is your job as a buyer to research the seller. You can find a good seller, such as the one who sold you your beardie, set up next to a vendor with sick, mite-ridden critters on death's door. Which leads to...

Lesson learned, thank you.

I also find that extremely shady. It blows away the "contact the seller immediately if there is a problem" advice (which of course you should do) since you had no way of knowing who you were really dealing with when you purchased the turtles.

While tables I1-I4 were apparently for Eastern Exotics based on Repticon Baltimore's web site those were the ones Billy Gangemi took, yes? And Eastern Exotics wasn't even vending there that day, yes? If so I'd be really ticked someone was selling sick critters under my business name - which makes me wonder how many other complaints they've received.

Me too. The driving question for me, since I found out about this bad business practice at Repticon, is why? Why did he and his friend use another business name? Do they have their own business name? Where is their business located? Everyone seemed to think that it was unreasonable for me to ask such questions as where are the rest of the tortoises that came from this batch? Where do you house them? What are their conditions now? Are they alive or no? I know some feel these are unfair questions, but I think under the circumstances they are fair.

Originally Posted by Lucille

When you received them, they appeared fine.
Then they became ill. You took them to the vet. (Lydia, could you please scan and post all the vet papers including the findings, weights, and diagnosis?)
A month later, you informed your seller who is still willing to refund.

My seller was no where to be found. When I asked him for a card he said he didn't have any.



My advice, when an animal continues to decline after a vet visit, is to seek a second opinion. I would think that in vet circles a second opinion is probably regarded the same was as it often is in the medical world: Not a vote of no confidence but rather asking for a perhaps different perspective that may be of value to the patient.
Yes, I feel like a shmuck but my Vet was so highly recommended and he DOES have three of his own, huge Tortoises in the office. (so cool!)

Even the best seller is not ordinarily a vet, so placing this burden on your seller is not fair in my opinion. He did everything he could which is offer a refund.

The burden I place on Billy is a moral one, not a financial one. It is based on the value of small lives, and whether we should be willing to sacrifice them, not for food or survival, but just for entertainment. His view of me as an enemy is just that. His view. I am only his enemy if he is not the friend of the animals he sells. I have been considering meeting him in PA to try to rescue another tortoise to give to the vet until it is better then as an educational tool to the nature center.


I really think that is not fair. The vendor first heard of your turtle woes a month after the sale, and you yourself said they looked fine on arrival which means to me they looked fine on departure from the seller.
You claim that they were underweight (please post weights, diagnosis, etc. from the vet) yet you said they looked fine on arrival.

Please post the vet findings.

Will do. but his handwriting is so terrible you may not be able to read it anyway.
-Lydia