Current Status of the Reptile Industry

Originally Posted by jglass38

I guess Donna's psychic abilities didn't help clue her in earlier to help prepare for the poor sales she is seeing. Ooops...

Didn't something similar happen to the Psychic Friends Network too?

Why can't we talk about the subject of the thread without resorting to insults?

Speaking as someone that has made a living at this for more than 10 years, I actually agree with more of the points that Winged Wolf makes. Please keep in mind that I am a leopard gecko breeder and don't work with ball pythons any longer.

Prices on reptile morphs fall pretty quickly. Holding onto "X" amount of "morph A" for an entire season because they aren't selling at last years or even last months price really isn't economically a very smart thing to do. You end up putting lots more food, time and space into the animal(s) and probably raising it up to an adult. Then you're talking months and months away and by that time 9 times out of 10 the morph just won't be worth as much anymore anyway.

God bless America and the free market economy!

Originally Posted by KelliH

Speaking as someone that has made a living at this for more than 10 years, I actually agree with more of the points that Winged Wolf makes. Please keep in mind that I am a leopard gecko breeder and don't work with ball pythons any longer.

Prices on reptile morphs fall pretty quickly. Holding onto "X" amount of "morph A" for an entire season because they aren't selling at last years or even last months price really isn't economically a very smart thing to do. You end up putting lots more food, time and space into the animal(s) and probably raising it up to an adult. Then you're talking months and months away and by that time 9 times out of 10 the morph just won't be worth as much anymore anyway.

God bless America and the free market economy!

With ball pythons, it does work that way. People pay more for adult animals. The fact is, the people trying to sell babies and dumping them will never know. Food is cheap, space is cheap. Unless your renting a high dollar commercial space I don't really buy the "it costs too much to hang on to it". Look at BHB, he hangs onto animals and feeds them to sell as subadults and adults. He is constantly selling yearlings etc at shows for much more cash than anyone is getting for babies. It just doesn't apply to ball pythons. People want the bigger animals to breed them sooner. So if you want to set yourself apart from other "dumpers" keep them and raise them up. Like I keep saying. If space is an issue, then maybe you shouldn't be producing it.

Originally Posted by Bill & Amy

With ball pythons, it does work that way. People pay more for adult animals. The fact is, the people trying to sell babies and dumping them will never know. Food is cheap, space is cheap. Unless your renting a high dollar commercial space I don't really buy the "it costs too much to hang on to it". Look at BHB, he hangs onto animals and feeds them to sell as subadults and adults. He is constantly selling yearlings etc at shows for much more cash than anyone is getting for babies. It just doesn't apply to ball pythons. People want the bigger animals to breed them sooner. So if you want to set yourself apart from other "dumpers" keep them and raise them up. Like I keep saying. If space is an issue, then maybe you shouldn't be producing it.

I gotta agree with Bill. Even though I am looking forward to my first successful breeding season, my plans have always included holding on to anything that doesn't sell right off. Shoot, even normal females sell for a decent price as they get closer to being breedable size.
Granted, I'm not doing this as a business--I'm strictly a hobbyist--but I have still planned for the future as far as having enough room to hold on to any 'excess' bp babies.
I'm not in it for the money...it's fun and I love my snakes. If I can sell some to cover expenses, that's great. Early on in the game I had thoughts of making it a business, but I'm leaning more toward being a successful hobbyist at this point. It will give me something to do with my time when I retire...in another 12 years....

I will put a comment in here. Some may like it others may hate it. But after work I will make a post.

I will say though.....Some yell out its all about the hobby its all about the hobby......But when it comes down to it......It always falls back on the mighty dollar why people get upset!

Originally Posted by Gary O

I will put a comment in here. Some may like it others may hate it. But after work I will make a post.

I will say though.....Some yell out its all about the hobby its all about the hobby......But when it comes down to it......It always falls back on the mighty dollar why people get upset!

Exactly, people that want to hurry up and dump their animals are worried about the almighty dollar and how fast they can get it.

Originally Posted by Tiger Lilly

I gotta agree with Bill. Even though I am looking forward to my first successful breeding season, my plans have always included holding on to anything that doesn't sell right off. Shoot, even normal females sell for a decent price as they get closer to being breedable size.
Granted, I'm not doing this as a business--I'm strictly a hobbyist--but I have still planned for the future as far as having enough room to hold on to any 'excess' bp babies.
I'm not in it for the money...it's fun and I love my snakes. If I can sell some to cover expenses, that's great. Early on in the game I had thoughts of making it a business, but I'm leaning more toward being a successful hobbyist at this point. It will give me something to do with my time when I retire...in another 12 years....

A) I've never been able to understand why some people are incapable of engaging in a debate without getting personal. Stick to the subject, not the person. Particularly when you're dirt ignorant about the subject you're trying to prod them with. If the goal is to make the other person angry, you obviously have no faith in your argument itself to make the point for you. This isn't a sports match--the guy who knocks the other guy down doesn't win. The idea that actually has more merit wins. Sometimes, neither idea will have more merit, and it's just interesting to see different perspectives--an idea apparently foreign to the sportsters.

B) Bill--There's a big difference between "you should always have enough money in reserve to get you through lean times" and "you should never have to rely on selling an animal to make a living". VAST difference, there. Now that I realize you didn't mean what you said the first time, I agree with you. You need to be able to support your animals if disaster should happen, either that or be prepared to scale your business back, which is always a last resort. There comes a point, however, where you will need to make at least some sales each year in order to support your collection, or you'll be forced to sell off adults to do it. The only alternative is to have some other job to support them. You can save the money up, of course, and that's a wise thing to do, but someone who is JUST STARTING OUT will not have those savings yet. You're talking from the perspective of someone who's been breeding for many years, and has luxuries that newer breeders do not have.
This is matter of how to manage ANY business, not just a reptile breeding business. It's going to take at least 3 years to make a ball python business truly stable, and probably more like 5 years. I've crunched the numbers. Unless you go in with a really big fat wad of cash, it takes a bit of time to get to the point where you can hold back bunches of animals to sell them off when they're adults.

I do not agree that you can make loads of cash doing that. I've watched the market prices, and unless you're holding back exceptional animals, you're not going to be getting a LOT more than you would have if you sold them younger--when you subtract the cost of food and care, of course. And that's BEFORE you figure in labor. Have you really done the numbers? Of course, the morph matters. Some morphs hold their value extremely well (Piebald, Albino), and some hold their value like a sieve holds water (mojave, pinstripe).

Holding back a bunch of piebalds to raise up will give you more money in the long run. But offset that with the potential to re-invest what you made from selling them as babies back into more adult females for yourself...suddenly it's not so clear that it's a wise choice.

As for space--space is something you purchase after your business is making a LOT more money. Yet another thing that looks simple from the perspective of someone who either started the business with a big load of cash already in hand, or has been doing it long enough to have forgotten the difficulties faced when you are starting up.

I personally don't get the luxury of space for another year or two. At the moment I have 2 rat racks, and no room for more--most of my animals eat FT, and I seek out animals that do. I have to carefully choose what I bring in, and what I keep, so that I can maximize my future profit in the space I have. I can't keep animals that will produce in 3 years--I need them to produce this year, so I can get out of here and into something bigger, sooner.

This doesn't mean there is anything wrong with my business, or with my business plan. Things are going quite well, as I said. Once I'm in a position where I can hold back lots of animals, I WILL. For numerous reasons, not just to resell some when they are larger--I want plenty of females from my own base stock so I can start creating my own lines. That takes time.

Don't be so elitist--your way of doing things isn't the only way, and it most certainly isn't the only right way.

Originally Posted by WingedWolf

B) Bill--There's a big difference between "you should always have enough money in reserve to get you through lean times" and "you should never have to rely on selling an animal to make a living". VAST difference, there. Now that I realize you didn't mean what you said the first time, I agree with you. You need to be able to support your animals if disaster should happen, either that or be prepared to scale your business back, which is always a last resort. There comes a point, however, where you will need to make at least some sales each year in order to support your collection, or you'll be forced to sell off adults to do it. The only alternative is to have some other job to support them. You can save the money up, of course, and that's a wise thing to do, but someone who is JUST STARTING OUT will not have those savings yet. You're talking from the perspective of someone who's been breeding for many years, and has luxuries that newer breeders do not have.
This is matter of how to manage ANY business, not just a reptile breeding business. It's going to take at least 3 years to make a ball python business truly stable, and probably more like 5 years. I've crunched the numbers. Unless you go in with a really big fat wad of cash, it takes a bit of time to get to the point where you can hold back bunches of animals to sell them off when they're adults.

If your just starting out and working from home etc. You have hardly any overhead, so you shouldn't need tons of money sitting there to get by. If your just starting and are doing this from home then I consider a hobby breeder. Yes, you can get a business license and call it a business, but really you are just a hobby breeder that sells as a business. Which in reality is what most breeders are. I have my EIN number and proper paperwork, but still consider myself a hobby breeder. Now that doesn't mean that every home based business is a hobby breeder. There are several breeders that I can think of fall more into the business aspect. Don't want to bring names into this thread, if you wish to discuss them further you can pm me. So many people buy a rack, a few animals, put them in a bedroom and call themselves a "business" with a "facility" to make themselves more important. I still stand by my opinion that if you can't afford to keep the babies or don't have room to keep them then you shouldn't produce them. No matter how many times you restate or twist it, that won't change, if you are a "business" or not.

Anyway, I've said my peace on the subject. Take it or leave it.