What would you do?

I had a customer purchase three hatchling sulcatta tortoises back in April.

They were sent in plastic containers in side a cricket box with newspaper and heat packs. (I sent out 6 boxes like this on the same day..with not problems). She claims the tortoises were cold and she gave them a warm bath, after which "one started to blow bubbles out of it's nose".

I asked her to send them back and I would refund her money. She said she you wanted to keep them and would take them to see a vet.

Today I received an email from her threatening to post negative info about me if I did not refund her money. Since I haven't heard from in her a few weeks I assumed all was well. I asked for the name and phone number of the vet to verify the DX. She will not give up the info.

What would you do, refund the $45 to shut her up or stick to your policy?

Was the cricket box insulated with styrofoam?
If not, that is purely poor packing on you part and probably would cause respiratory issues that you should be responsible for. Especially in regard to where you are shipping from...
PA I presume.
And were you selling those Sulcatas for $15 ea.?
Maybe I am confused.

-Yasser Moustafa
Spitfire Reptiles

I'm sorry they were $45 each.

The box was NOT insulated. The temp was 69' with two 12 hour heat packs. That should've been fine, as I have received animals with nothing. They went early am and were delivered to UPS by me at 8pm.

You don't think that giving a "cold" tortoise a bath would cause a problem?

What about not hearing from her until now? That doesn't look good. If there was a problem, why didn't she contact me again?

Why hasn't she given the vet info. Did she take the animal(s) to the vet? Probably not!

Are you telling me you would refund the $45 without having the tortoise shipped back?

I am waiting to see if she can/or will give the vet info. I would hate to be in this situation. I would probably feel the same way she does. But, the customer is not always right! Dealing with live animals is not an easy business. Our policies are very good, considering some I have come across.

Thanks for you help...

Originally posted by ExoticPetsWS
I had a customer purchase three hatchling sulcatta tortoises back in April.

Today I received an email from her threatening to post negative info about me if I did not refund her money. Since I haven't heard from in her a few weeks I assumed all was well.

Back in April? this is April, and only the middle of it. Did you mean March? If it's been a few week since you'd heard from her, then it had to be March...or before.

I don't know much about torts, so I don't know how fast they can develop RI's or any such thing, but if she can't (won't) show any proof, I would say you don't owe her anything.

If I were you, I would let her come on here and post, and in the process shoot herself in the foot. However, if you have ANY doubt at all that the tort was less than 100% healthy, and could possibly have been sick, I would keep after proof before pulling it to the BOI.

Yes, March...

It sounds to me like she is entitled to nothing at all. Regardless of whether you were negligent in your packaging of the animals (not saying you were, mind you), the fact is that you offered her a refund immediately upon hearing of her concerns. She turned you down, saying she would keep the animal. PERIOD!!!

She took it to the vet? Good. That's what pet owners SHOULD do when they have a sick pet. Should you be responsible for those vet bills? Not unless you agreed to be in some way.

Once you offered a total refund for the tort, and the buyer refused that offer, in my mind that tort belonged to her lock, stock, and barrel. Any vet bills she incurred after that are hers to pay, and you have no responsibility toward them unless you specifically took such responsibility upon yourself.

All of that being said, you now have to ask yourself if this aggrivation is worth the loss of $45 bucks. For me, I think I'd give her the money back and then tell her that I hope her tort gets to feeling better soon. I'd make certain she understood that this was the limit of my generosity, and that I did not believe it was my responsibility to even do this much, but for the sake of good will, here you go. That may be the best $45 you'll ever spend, or the customer may think it owed to her ... you never know.

Let me also add that what I have written above is based SOLELY upon the facts as they have been given after hearing one side of the story. I am not saying you misrepresented anything in any way here. I have just been burned a few times offering help on one person's side of the events before, and I'm not anxious to have that happen again soon.

Here are the emails:

3/31/04
Just recieved them, One is missing a front nail and they are all very very cold still, so were going to do some warm soaks and off to the vet for meds(they all seam to have resp. infections.)

My Reply on 3/31/04:
Send them back! There is nothing wrong with any of them...I'm very upset at this. I have been shipping animals for 10 years. I sell only quality stock. Please I will refund your money. Just send them back. I sent 76 out and had only one complaint. How or why is this possible. Soaking them is not the answer if they are cold. That will make them sick. There were 2 heat packs in the box for a next day trip this is fine. I'll be more than happy to have them back. They are hatchlings.


Response 3/31/04:
I don't have a problem keeping them I just want to get them into the vet. one is blowing bubbles out his nose the other 2 are starting to come around under the heat lamps but still breathing not as they should be. It just takes time and love I just wanted to update you and let you know they came we are very excited and glad they arrived safely. We were just looking at your current stock on other animals and am looking forward to buying from you again in the very near future.

The resp. infection is nothing, cold air and shipping is stressful on any animal and it has nothing to do with the shipper or the supplier. you guys did a great job on the packing and raising them thus far. they are great little guys with great personalities(love having their heads rubbed to.)

The only thing I am worried about so far is the one blowin bubbles but I have experience with them so He should be fine. they are in great hands, and came from a great place.

Thanks so much rose. you guys were great!

Second message with no response:
I have tons of experience with tortoises so they will be in great hands. I wasnt complaining I just wanted you to know they arrived safely. One has a missing nail kinda bloody so it probably happend durring shipping but it don't seam to bother him. They are doing better now that they have been under the heat lamps but still need time.

Oh no, I wasnt suggesting you sent out sick animals. they are great, just got cold that will do it to any animal, or human for that matter. you guys did a great job. They will be fine, don't worry. you did nothing wrong.

Take care,

Christina

No other messages until this one on 4/13/04.
I recently purchased 3 hatchlings from you. All 3 arrived sick. 2 of them have gotten better and are doing just fine. 1 of them is not doing well at all. I have done everything I can and it is not getting better. I am just writing to ask you if you could exchange it. Since you were the breeder Maybe you could make him better. I love animals and I wouldnt be able to forgive myself if something were to happend.

My Reply on 4/13/04:
I'm sorry but at this point I can not refund or exchange the tortoise for you. This is the first message I received from you since you purchased the tortoises. The last I heard you were taking the tortoises to the vet. What did the vet say?

Tortoises that are cold should not be soaked. I did not agree with the soakings upon arrival, and told you so. I asked you to return them the next day..you wanted to keep them.

We do not send out sick animals. These tortoises were not sick when you received them. They may have been cold, and shipping does stress the animals to some extent. Heating them up and offering food is all that needs to be done. They usually respond well within an hour or so.

Please know that I am very sorry.
Rose

Her response on 4/14/04:
I told you I would keep them 2 are fine the one is very sick and getting worse. vet said he would be better but hasnt gotten better. He has a bad resp infection. I have talked on many boards and all agree your shipping methods were not good(a huge hole in the side of the box with mesh screen a big nono) I am asking for a refund or for you to exchange for another. I paid for a animal that I recieved sick wether it was when it was sent out I don't care. I recieved 3 sick animals 2 of which got better one is still very sick. I have done all I can do but I don't see that me keeping a sick animal is right.

As I mention I have talked to several people and have not mentioned a name. but If this matter is not resolved I will.

I am very sorry but you told me you had been selling animals for a long time and I have to say the customer service I recieved before and after I recieved these animals were totally diffrent. If I were to send out a animal that showed these symptoms on delivery (and i notified you 5 min after opening the package) I would do everything I could to fix the problem. all you have done is tell me the animals were not sick. They got sick and theres still an issue at hand.

My reply on 4/14/04:
You were asked to send them back the next day. You didn't.

As for my shipping methods.. I have never had a problem. I continue to ship the same way.

As for my customer service.. I think I have handled this problem like any other company would have. I asked you to return the animals. After a few weeks of no contact I assumed all was well. Now a frantic message threatening to tell my name on your boards. I can tell you, I run a very good business. My customer service is better than most. My animals are top quality. My prices are very good.

Her response on 4/14/04:
I was very polite durring our conversations. yes you wanted me to send you them back so I would have been paying a fortune for them in shipping. 150 in turtles and 100 in shipping no thanks. the 2 are doing great the one is extreamly sick. I have takin it to the vet and done everything I can possibly do. It has been 13 days and I am just saying you are a business. you shipped them and I recieved 3 sick. 2 are back to great health one is probably going to die. I have done all I can.

Here is my request:

I am requesting that You pay to have the animal shipped back to you. You check and confirm in your own eyes that the animal is sick.When you confirm he is sick you refund the 50.00 that I paid for that animal. OR refund me for 1/2 if not the full 50.00 and I will just drop the whole thing. I do not think it is fair to pay for a animal that is this sick.

If you do not agree to these tems I will post on every board I possibly can with pictures of the shipping box as well as the pictures I took when they first arrived and statements from my husband, 3 neighbors, and 3 friends that were here the day I recieved them.


I talked to you several times before I recieved them and I was very polite and enjoyed talking to you. I sent the money order next day. and I did everything on my end to be a great customer. I contacted you within 5 min of opening the box and told you there was a problem and you got very defensive. from that min till now you have not shown good customer service at all and you have done nothing but tell me to send them back(shipping that soon would have killed them you know that) And you wanted them back only because they were hatchlings and you could sell them to someone else and noone deserves to go thru what I have in the last 14 days. I recieved these animals thinking they were going to be healthy and great animals and they are not! 2 are better thanks to me but one is very very sick, and I am wishing that you could do something about it.

My reply on 4/14/04:
You need to take some of the blame. You DO NOT give a cold tortoise a bath! I did not send out sick tortoises. I can give you the names of customers who purchased tortoises from me. They received them the same way. Did not give them a bath. Heated them up and are very happy. What happen to your tortoises. You gave them a bath. You made them sick.

You paid $45 for each of the babies. Why did you buy them from me. Because I had the best price or because you thought you'd be able to push me around? Because I'm concerned about my business reputation. I have heard enough of your threats. If I decide to give you anything it will be of my decision. Not because you are threatening me. Give me the name and phone number of the vet you took them too. I will call to verify and the DX, and get back to you as to what I decide to do.

Rose

Her response on 4/14/04:
I gave them a bath after they were warmed up not untill I have had several kinds of box turtles, aquatics, and tortosies including sulcatas. all have been shipped to me and I have ship some out as well. I bought from you because you were selling them reasonably priced. Because after talking to you I was very satisfied becauseafter talking thru email you seamed like a very very nice person that I could trust. 2 of the 3 are doing fine and are now living with my daughter and bestfriend as those are who they were bought for. I fell in love with the one with a perfectly flat shell hes so beautifull and now I am stuck with a beautifull tortoise that is very sick and will probably die which is not fair to me. I will be purchasing a new 2 inch hatchling from ben siegal I have talked to many people who say hes very very good and has a 30 day guarentee so if anything like this happends agian I am not stuck with the headache.

I am sorry for bothering you. I will drop this right now and continue to put my time and energy into this new part of my family. I will let you know when he passes and when he does I will have an autopsy done and send you the results. Untill then take care.

My reply on 4/14/04:
Can I have the number for the vet you took them too. I would really like to speak with him/her concerning this matter. As for purchasing from Ben. Good luck. Ask Ben if he'd replace a tortoise that was given a bath upon arrival. Not Ben or any other business would have refunded your money. You should have sent them back. I offered to refund your money. The only way I will refund the money is if you send the tortoise back. Unfortunately, you will be stuck paying the shipping fees.

I have already posted a message asking what other business would do in this situation. Let's see what others have to say.

Her response on 4/14/04:
I KNOW WHAT I WAS DOING AND HE HAD A BATH AFTER BEING WARMED UP!

Obviously you are worried about only the money and not the animals, that just shows right there about your business ethics. You have not sent me an email or a phone call and have not shown any intrest in the animals heath at all. all you have done was set blame on me which I did nothing wrong. this conversation has ended and I am done with your company. I will make sure everyone else know why you sell your animals at such a low price. i should have learned my lesson you get what you pay for. in my situation it is going to cause a helpless animal his life! you should be ashamed of yourself!

My reply on 4/14/04:
Oh my GOD...

If I was worried about the money would I have asked you to send them back...Please think about what you are say. If I can verify the illness with a vet I will be more than happy (more than happy) to REFUND the $45 for the tortoise.

Oh, yes you are right about my business ethics....Absolutely!

I don't follow up with any of my customers. They are all repeat customers. Imagine that....

I am able to sell my animals at a fair price because I cut out the middle man and deal directly with the breeders or import the animals myself.

I don't understand the problem....Give up the vet info....once verified....you will get a MONEY ORDER for $45....what's the problem?

I'm ashamed of NOTHING! Did I ask you to return the animals for a refund? YES...



I have not received any more messages from her. I really want to do what is right. I have offered her a full refund from day one. I have a hard time believing her. Why haven't I received at least one complaint from any other customers? Why hasn't she given the vet info?

Whoever the buyer is, they must have a split personality.
While you may not have properly packed the animals, you took full responsibility for them and requested that they be shipped back. That's what I would have done. I see no blame on your part on the business end. It almost seems like two different people emailing you back. I find it funny how they claim you only care about making money yet they don't want to take any loss for the sake of the welfare of the animals. Sounds like they just want to complain until you give them a full refund and they get to keep all of the torts regardless of whether they live or die.
If they had an issue with the condition of the animals when they arrived, they should have sent them back immediately. The fact that they chose not to, trying to make the torts better themselves, they assumed responsibility of them at that point. In my eyes, if the buyer turns down the request to send them back for a refund, then right there, they are completely responsible for the purchased animals from there on out.
Good luck.

to her, let her reply to it. lets see what she has to say

Yes how she shipped them was wrong the whole side of the box was cut out with screen inserted and no insulation at all. 2 were cramed into one deli container (the clear thin ones the deli sandwiches come in) and they were only insulated with one ball of news paper in each container. And the heat packs were not effichient. they were recieved march 31(still very cold) being shipped from PA to MI. I refused to send them back because she stated they were hatchlings and easy to re-sell. thats not fair for another person to recieve sick torts as I did. AND I DID NOT GIVE A WARM BATH UNTILL AFTER THE TORT HAD BEEN UNDER HEAT LAMPS FOR SEVERAL HOURS!

As for waiting so long I have had a lot of Family health problems and Dealing with that as well as 3 sick hatchlings and 3 childrens busy sceduals and going to school for my bacholers degree I have been extreamly busy and did not want to deal with her any longer.

We had great communication before the turtles were sent out and I responded 5 min after opening the box and was replied to by frantic emails with her very upset and saying she has never had problems in over 10 years as well as how she would never send out a sick animal. I was very polite and just left it as that obviously seeing I was going no where.

I will send her a copy of the vet info if she wants but as I said I am not going anywhere with this and just wanted to voice my opinion to her. If I were a seller and shipped out a animal that arrived very sick I would have been emailing everyday if not every other to check the progress. Thats just good customer service not to start a screaming match trying to set blame on another person. The animals life is importaint not the measly 45.00 it was sold for.

My point is its done 45.00 is 45.00 but I am not shipping a sick animal(the other 2 are better its just one thats extreamly sick still) back so it can be resold as healthy. Its in beter hands with me if thats the case. I just hope the seller can look at this and think about her shipping methods better(more insulation and longer heat packs) and if you get a complaint don't place blame on the other person. You could to be at fault too.

As far as the tort I am very attached. he arrived with a missing nail and was extreamly cold to the touch took several hours before his body was not cold and he came out and ate and soaked and loved it but as soon as he came out of the shell he was gasping for air streatching out his neck the skin on his back legs were puffy and he was blowing bubbles from his nose constantly not just once or twice. I took him to the vet and he agreed he has a resp infection. I have no problem sending her the info, but I don't have a scanner and can't email her a copy so I will send it if she wants. I just don't understand why she is having such a problem I let her know there was a problem within 15 min. now here i am a new owner just bought these animals and I am being stuck with vet bills for her negligence.

points here are:she did not send them properly. big mistake there. she did offer to refund my money but why. i paid 35 to have it shipped to me in poor conditions 35 to send it back hmmm that's more than it cost for the animal. plus you can't ship a sick animal. what do you do when you are sick? you want to sleep and be pampered not be placed in a dark cold box and be bounced around for a min. of 24 hours. no thanks.

I think I should get part of my money back if not all of it. she even said how she shipped the animal and I don't think its fair to me to recieve and have to deal with a sick animal.


FROM HER SITE:"Guarantee:
We guarantee our animals are healthy and alive when they arrive."

AndShould you run into a problem... please let us know within one hour of receiving your shipment. A credit will be given on your next invoice or a replacement will be sent with your next order. If we do not hear from you within one hour we will assume that everything is great and you have had no problems
NOTICE A CREDIT OR REPLACEMENT WILL BE SET SAYS NOTHING ABOUT SHIPPING BACK A SICK ANIMAL I LET HER KNOW WITHIN THE 1 HOUR GIVIN TIME!
For one they did not arrive healthy. for 2 I let her know they were sick within 5 min of recieving them. all I got was an earful as to how she don't send out sick animals and from there it went to how it must have been my fault. I could see if I had told her a few days later but I emailed her within 5 min of opening the box!

Here are the facts I am not going to make this personal and make it a fighting match because its not worth it. here are the facts you decide who is at fault!