Adenovirus Questions

I have two positive dragons. I would more than willingly share my information. When I got my results, I asked two researchers if they were compiling data and as of date, they are not. I think that is what needs to happen. At least have a place for people to research. If both breeders and hobbyists work together, than maybe we can learn from each others experiences and help with research.

Sandy

I have one positive male dragon.

I would like to help with reasearch

The first thread on Adeno virus was Attacking Sunshinedragons for selling "Black" Plaque known Adeno virus Dragons

Sunshinedragon shut down, stopped Breeding, Stopped selling etc & investedgated for 5 weeks in peak season, and still came to the same conclusion...the Empress Wears no clothes>CheriS

The thread that was started by Whiskersmom about Sunshinedragons after she sent us, Sunshinedragons this e-mail about a Dragon she Obtained from Sunshinedragons>

Thanks,
Sherri

"By the way....Whiskers, son of Pyro and Studly, woke up today for a bit from brumation. I weighed him and thought you would like to know that he is 22" long and weighs 728 grams. His vet says he's one of healthiest dragons he has seen in a long time. I'm not overly concerned about this virus, just thought I should try to keep myself informed - thanks again."

Then Sherri starts a thread that we are selling deadly Adeno dragons. -700+ yearling that her own Vet says is one of the healthiest Dragons he ever saw???? Well if Adeno dragons produce 700+ healthy yealings we wish our whole colony had Adeno. LOL

Cheri S spread rumors, innuedos, and unsubstatiated untruths that Sunshinedragons was knowling selling "Black Plaque" Dragons-The empress wears no Clothes.

Ivy League University of Penn, ranked as one of the top 5 Vet Schools/Hospitals in the country gave us this explanation which we posted:

"Neither Nicole or I are researchers in adenovirus disease or biology. Active researchers in reptile virology say they know very little about the biology of this virus.

Neither Nicole or I know enough about adenovirus to write a letter that has any teeth to it. *******The more we found out for you, the more it was obvious that experts are confused.

Here are adenovirus facts:

It MAY BE in many colonies of beared dragons in the US.
It has not been found YET in wild bearded dragons.(possibly now)
No one can predict if a bearded dragon that is positive will die and/or transmit disease.
There is no test that can proclaim a bearded dragon totally free of this disease while the bearded dragon is alive.
It may not even cause disease.............
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
********-There is a big difference between adenovirus infection and adenovirus disease.<<<<<<<<<<
Not all bearded dragons that are infected with the virus will go on to develop disease.

*****Here is our simple answer- we just don't know how best to advice anyone with a beardie colony b/c the science has yet to be worked out.

>Active researchers in reptile virology say they know very little about the biology of this virus.

>Karen and Nicole are specialist in one of the top veterinarian Schools/Hospitals in the country. IVY League!!!

>Both Karen and Nicole have direct phone numbers of the most knowlegeable, respected and best Vets in the Country. They each spent over 20 hours contacting and speaking with those Specialist Directly, and this is what they found out.

>No One knows for sure if Adeno causes Deaths, serious illnesses by itself, or is even spread easily.

They found out no one, absolutely no one has any study, Scientific proof of how if at all Adenovirus actually affects any Dragon.

...............
Now here is what U.O.P. Speaking about the time , money and most important passion Sunshinedragons spent for the wellfare of all dragons and Reptiles)

" Here are givens that we can say are fact:

>You are a passionate and compassionate advocate for your beardies and your business.

>You are trying to do what no one has ever done.


>You care about enriching and improving more than just the beardies in your charge; you strive to improve the lots of all reptiles.

>We love people like this and we try very hard to work with them. We give away
our services to these people as much as we can b/c we only want the best for
these animals. And it is a great way to teach our students.


(Karen L. Rosenthal, Director of Special Species Medicine
Mathew J. Ryan Veterinary Hospital
University of Penn.)
--------------------------------


Dan Wentz never answered Sunshinedragons questions on his study either , even after We resent it and it's now 6 months????

----------------------------------------------------

Now from a vet that spoke directly with Dr stacey, Dr Jacobsens Associate>....From a prominent Breeders Vet.....

" I spoke to Dr. Stacey, who works with Dr. Jacobson. His feeling is that because most of the bearded dragons in this country are from an original group, that no collection is likely truly "free" of adenovirus. There are also asymptomatic enteric adenoviruses that may not cause disease, but could be identified on fecal samples. Most adenoviruses are opportunistic and cause disease under periods of stress, such as poor husbandry or improper diets. ,,,,,,,,We can do this test if you would like (if you are feeling pressure from your clients/colleagues), however, I agree with Dr. Stacey that it may be more expense than useful information. ......."....

__________________________________________

Now Jim O another respected Scientist wrote Jim O- A scientist not a breeder wrote:

Despite the fact that I believe that certain people have made statements that are perhaps best termed less than forthright, I wanted to make some comments about this issue.

As is likely true, much if not most of the nearded dragon stock in this country has come from small group(s) of imports. There has been so much "cross-pollination" of breeders that it is likely that adenovirus has passed through or resides in the collections of most if not all major breeders. If that is the case where is the epidemic of deaths?

The information that has been posted, while no doubt relevant, is opinion, and is based on anecdotal experience (I have seen...) and is not based on prospective peer reviewed studies.

There are multiple serotypes, or strains, of adenoviruses. Some are probably more likely to be pathogenic in bearded dragons than are others, but no one has done the studies to find out which ones those are. Think about E. coli and the recent outbreak. We ALL have E.coli in our large intestines, jut not those particular strains that cause disease.

A negative test does not prove negativity. Even if the test could absolutely rule out virus in the feces (which it does not do completely as there are admittedly false negatives) that only proves that there was no virus being shed at that time. Think about having a cold sore, a herpes simplex virus infection. Those are persistent infections that are sometimes active and sometimes inactive (BTW some people with cold sores develop life threatening herpes encephalitis too). One is not shedding herpes virus every day so one negative test is not conclusive. Neither is one negative fecal for adenovirus. In fact, we don't know how often an infected, asymptomatic animal sheds virus as those studies have yet to be done.

Another analogy is the bacteria N. meningiditis, the causative agent in meningococcal meningitis. It may be present in 1-2% of "healthy" people's oro-nasopharynx up to perhaps 20% of people living in crowded conditions such as prisons, army boot camps, and college dormitories, but very few go on to have disease. This bacteria is a killer once it causes disease, but does so in very few people who carry it.

So...what are people to do with all of this? I don't know. For people who have had several animals die from this, well they were probably infected with a more pathogenic serotype or had dragons with some other immune system problem. That's a guess but until there is actual data, which may never come, it is a reasonable one.

For the rest of you...well I have some dragons that I'm not planning to breed and I'm not going to test them. But if I were going to breed them I'm not sure that I would because I'm not convinced that I have enough information to know what to do with the results of the test, especially if they are negative. I would have a hard time saying my dragons are truly negative with one or even two negative tests. And even if they are positive, they are thriving and appear quite unaffected. Until you know what to do with the answers, asking the question only leaves you with more questions.

The scientific studies need to be done, for sure. But don't expect that to happen anytime soon as they cost lots of money to do. Until then, it's Russian Roulette no matter what choice a breeder makes. But I, myself, with my scientific background, would not take one negative fecal as "proof" of an uninfected colony by any breeder

>>>Cheri S Post.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by CheriS
>Are you ignoring what Dr Jacobson , Dr Wentz and the person running the tests say, all who have worked with this virus?<

(Jim O's response)
No, but they are basing their opinions on conjecture, not scientific proof, and that was, and still is my point. They are only opinions, informed ones perhaps, but still just speculative. It can be my "informed opinion" that going out on a cold day causes pneumonia but it may not be so. Similarly with Linus Pauling and Vitamin C. He was a Noble Laureate but his later "work" and opinions were bunk and have never been confirmed.

After over 40-60 pages of post not a single person , breeder, hobby Breeder, Pet owner came forward to say they recieved a sick or dying dragon from Sunshinedragons.

Every living animal has a mortality % and can get sick. Yet when put out there for almost a month all we got was an incredible 6 month old dragon that the owner indicated it wasn't developing the way he expected. We met him , paid all his vet bills we knew of and the price of the dragon.

Guess What> He will now be one of our best Red Breeders,at over 600 grams and only a bit over a year old. LOL

So Where are all the sick , dying dragons we "knowing" sold. Where are the Dead. Where is the Black Plague that was supposed to wipe out colony after colony.

Yes it is a virus, yes we should be concerned about adeno and any Infection, potentioal illness etc. Yet every living creature has a variety of illnesses it can get or we would all live forever. It was the unprofessional Vicious attacks that we take issue with.

Where is the black Plaque. Cheri S says she hears of them, yet no one else has. There is no scientific proof that any Dragon actually died just from having Adeno. Not one study can come to that conclusion based on any study.

We Wish Sherri- Whiskersmom would let us have the male we sold her back as well.

Neverthelesss we were picked out regardless of our efforts to investigate, and we shut down for 5 weeks...did any other Breeder spend the money or time confiring with top Vet hospitals, scientist etc. No not a one until finally another breeder questioned the " innuedos".

Well then the mob mentality began once more with CheriS leading the charge.

Cheri S in our opinion has no Credibility, no Integrity, and would rather argue and attack people or a company than do her best to address and resolve the key isue in a professional manner.

Bearded Dragon Breeders are going closing down everydayalmost...good onesis the biggest disappointment. good ones. Does anyone wonder why now.

We were happy to respond even when we indicated we wouldn't. Just to keep the post going and show the ignorance and viciousness of certain people in this industry.

No one is going to question Sunshinedragons Integrity, it's not negotiable.

We realize by now posting there will more than likely be a "Mob mentality response".

We would like to say thank you to the 100's of E-mails from Breeder's and Customers that supported us.

So go ahead CheriS continue your ignorant blame throwing-we love it. You show yourself for who you really are.

Once again Sherri-Whiskersmom, can we have our pet back. You don't deserve him.

Regards from the entire Sunshinedragon Team-irrelevant of who wrote the above we are all on the same page in our beliefs and approach.

Pathetic how some people attempt to climb to the top on the dead bodies of others.

[quote]Once again Sherri-Whiskersmom, can we have our pet back. You don't deserve him[/QUOTE



I only asked questions of you....questions that you seemed to not want to provide the answers to, Bruce.
I never said that Whiskers has Adeno....in fact, he tested negative, but this is his first time at testing. Time will tell if he will remain negative.
I wanted to know about Pyro, Whiskers mother. I also wanted to know about Dante, the father of the baby that you were sending me to breed with Whiskers. I don't believe I received the answers from you yet.

Whiskers just went for his one year check up, he weighs 744 grams and once again, the vet was impressed with his level of health. He's in wonderful shape.
Thank you Bruce, but I believe that Whiskes good health has something to do with my husbandry.....not just genetics.

Why, in heavens name, would you want my dragon back? I'm reading this as a joke, ok Bruce? Because I can't believe you could possibly be serious, there is no way I would let Whiskers go.....he's a much loved part of my family.

oh boy oh boy.....here we go

do they sell Tums in 5 gallon buckets?

I quite enjoyed reading that.
Jim

I'm considering the PCR testing for my two males and one female. I have not sent in the EM tests that I have because of the statements about false negatives and only testing positive if the virus is shedding.

I had two females and one male housed together. 1 female died and I have a path report that states "Histologic findings were consistent for a bacterial septicemia and possible yolk coelomitis with no adenovirus inclusions evident histologically in the tissue sections examined." this is from Texas A&M Veterinary Medial Diagnostic Laboratory System.

A recap of the report states that yolk like substances were found throughout the animals organs and fat pads suggesting possible preovulatory egg retention. She also had "diffuse acute pneumonitis with vascular congestion".

I have the blood test results done 4 days prior to her death. The conclusion on the blood work was that she was "highly suspicious of leukemia or lymphoma." Necropsy results on that were negative for cancer.

If anyone wants this data for comparison you are welcome to it. I spoke with the Vet at A&M and she told me that she specifically looked for adenovirus because it was a bearded dragon and she was confident that there was no adenovirus present.

Just an FYI - this particular dragon came from Dachiu - so according to my information at least one of their dragons is negative by necropsy.

The other female and one male I have are from Dachiu also. The negative female and the other two were always housed together. So the other two might be negative and they might be positive.

I think it would be interesting to know and if they are positive, why wasn't the one that died positive? One male is housed by himself. He is an adult breeder that I bought from a breeder at a reptile show. I have not tested him but he was with both the females to breed. Is it possible he is negative? If he is positive, why wasn't the female that bred with him positive?

From all the research that I have personally done, I agree that we don't have enough information to draw any conclusions, so if anyone out there thinks that the clinical documentation and anecdotal notes would benefit with research, I will be happy to supply my information to them.

IN THE E-MAIL YOU SENT US YOU GAVE US CRDIT FOR HIM, NOW YOU TAKE CREDIT.

YET THAT ISN'T THE MAIN ISSUE. YOU SEND US THE e-MAIL ON HOW GOOD HE IS DOING AND YOUR "REALLY NOT CONCERNED ABOUT ADENO" AND THEN YOU YES YOU STARTED OR FEED THE TRHREAD NOWING NOTHINGABOUT THE VIRUS. JUST HEARSAY. YOU DID NO RESEARCH JST IGNORANT BLAME THROWING. THE THREAD ABOUT ADENO AND SUNSHINE.

YOU DIDN'T EVEN INVESTIGATE WHAT IT WAS, HOW TO TEST, WHAT THE TEST WOULD SHOW, WHILE WE LOST 5 WEEKS BREEDING, AND SELLING TO MAKE SURE IT WAS SAFE. YOU JUST CRTICIZED, BLAME THREW YET DID NOTHING TO ELSE..HELLO AM I MISSING SOMTHING. LIKE AN ARROGANT CONDESCENDING SHEEP .


Now which breeeder are you going to try to bring down or blame for illneses in the world. did you ever get test for adeno, Ecoli, Aids, Stress Test, Blood Test. You just get off on try to bering people down to your low level.

IT MAY BE BETTER FOR YOU TO KEEP WHISPERS AS EVERYTIME YOU INTERACT WITH HIM YOU WIL THINK OF US AND WHERE YOU GOT IT.

WE BUY GENTICS/AND BLOODLINES. YOU ARE JUST CLUELESS ABOUT SCIENCE AND MEDICE...DID ANYONE EVER TELL YOU MEDICINE AND SCIENCE IS NOT EXACT?

I WAS A MEDICAL STUDENT AND WHEN I LISTENED TO THE JABBERING I THOUGH I WAS IN A THIRD WORLD COUNTRY

YOU JUST SUPORTED A THREAD WITH A 700 GRAM DRAGON AND KNEW NOTHING ABOUT THE VIRUS, ABSOLUTELY NO RESEARCH ON YOUR PART, YET DID NO REAL RESEARCH ON THE VIRUS. YOU JUST LISTENED TO HEARSAY DUH

SOMEONES PUPPET MAYBE.

I GUESS NOW HUSBANDRY HAS A LOT TO DO WITH HOW A DRAGON DEVELOPS AND FIGHTS OFFF ILLNESSES, STRANGE BEFORE NO ONE WANTED TO ADMIT TO THAT.

HE WILL NEVER BE YOUR DRAGON WHETHER YOU HAVE HIM OR NOT . HE IS OUR NEW SUPER ADENO DRAGONS lol

The thread was started so that I could receive answers to some questions. It was up to you how you handled those questions....you chose to either ignore the questions or befuddle the whole thread by posting endless babble.

Kinda like you're doing now. What does your BOI thread have to do with this Adeno fact-finding thread???
I've done nothing wrong.....all I wanted to know was where Pyro was, I'm sorry if you felt that you couldn't admit that she had died. But when you try to cover things up or even lie about certain events, you eventually get caught up in it.

The only reason I was interested to begin with was because you and I had entered into a breeding agreement, which later I found out that the father of the baby you were sending me had died of unknown circumstances.

Now that makes two young dragons to die that you owned in a relatively short amount of time. With the AV being what it is....and that I have a son of one of the dragons that died...and you were in the process of sending me a possible infected dragon, don't you think I had a right to ask some questions???

I entered into no agreement. Cheri S called us and asked us to have phone round table. duh We already had started our process of research before the almighty Cheri even contacted us. We were planning to do our own research due to our concern.

Do you think Cheri suggested we go to one of Best Veterenarian Schools/Hospitals in the Counry instead of just her two "Experts"
In fact once she knew someone else was asking Qualified Vets from Top schools questions & it wasn't her just interpreting Dr Jacobson she was quite upset. She lost control.

We run our own business, and Cheri S stuck her nose in uninvited. We research as best we could because of our concern and our own ignornce & our passion for our Pets, Yes Pets..what did you do.?

No I couldn't answer your questions, University of Penn couldn't answer them for me, I am not a vet. They still aren't answered, not because I attempted to avoid them, yet because they don't know the answers.

Here's a medical question for you. How do you cure cancer. Now don't dodge the question, tell me.

Medicine, and Science are not exact. At leat we spent a ton of money, time and effort attempting to get anwers what did you do.

We wrrote to Dr. Wentz twice with specific questions on his study in a non aggressvie non threatenting objective manner. He didn't answer us in over 6 months.

Believe it or not we are stil researching and found one of the best Viral Vets in the country, that also worked with doctor Jacobson.

We will write, call etc and see his take.

The experts don't have the answers to the questions you asked me. You would rather argue than read the facts. You would rather be right than do whats write.

You don't know how to say the six most important words in the english Language.>>

"I think I made a Mistake" Who has given you the proven studies that answer the questions you asked us?????
>>>>
University of Penn-Ivy Lague One of the top 3 ranked Vet Schools/Hopitals in the country>>>>> tey spent 40 hours calling every top viral vet tehy knew and couldn't get answers.

In a message dated 10/17/2006 5:58:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, karenrl@vet.upenn.edu writes:
Dear Bruce

Neither Nicole or I are researchers in adenovirus disease or biology. Active researchers in reptile virology say they know very little about the biology of this virus.

*****Here is our simple answer- we just don't know how best to advice anyone with a beardie colony b/c the science has yet to be worked out.

*******The more we found out for you, the more it was obvious that experts are confused.<<<<<<

>Karen and Nicole are two of the top renoun Veterinarian special species Veterinarians in the Country. They are responsible for this department in one of the top ranked Veterinarian Schools/Hospital in the country.When we talked to Karen she had just returned from a professional visit to Australia studying some of these issues.

>They have direct phone numbers of the top Veterinarians and best Vets in the Country. They each spent over 20 hours contacting and speaking with those Specialist Directly, and see what they found out.

>No One knows for sure if Adeno causes Deaths, serious illnesses by itself, or is even spread easily.

They found out no one, absolutely no one has any study, Scientific proof of how if at all Adenovirus actually affects any Dragon without other factors contributing.


Neither Nicole or I know enough about adenovirus to write a letter that has any teeth to it. *******The more we found out for you, the more it was obvious that experts are confused.

(Karen L. Rosenthal, Director of Special Species Medicine
Mathew J. Ryan Veterinary Hospital
University of Penn.)


Science and Medicine is not exact, unless you know something no else does. You asked me questions that the Best Veterinarians in the Country don't have answers for. I told, not evaded, I don't know those answers.

If you do don't keep it a secret!

Now send our pet back, you don't deserve a Sunshinedragon.

Bruce