Adenovirus Questions

Originally Posted by Valley Dragons

From what I have read, the virus could be shed from days to years. That's a pretty big discrepency, and would make alot of difference when looking for ways to control this virus.

can you share where you read the shed for days part? I have not seen that, all indicators I know of, including ones that have been repeat tested show them shedding the viral cells for at least 4 years (that is as long as it has been followed) I do not know if all do, but the ones that have tested by owners over years have

I am not trying to downplay the experiences of breeders who have had to deal with adeno infection in their animals, but I am concerned that people may prematurely jump to conclusions before we have all the peices to this puzzle.

We need to share our experiences and information, and try to put two and two together to figure out exactly how this virus actually affects the bearded dragon population.

First the only conclusion that I have seen anyone jump to is what is advised by every medical researcher and professor at any university I have seen,.... DO NOT sell infected animals. Everything else is shubjective to the owner what they want to do

The other is confusing, do you want breeders experiences that have dealt with this or not? This is why so many breeders and owners are afraid to say anything at all. On one hand they are attacked by the breeders that have this and want to keep it hushed up, cursed off that it is antidotal, which is about all there is our there right now. They are a few things that have been made public, but they get picked apart by the same people. On the other hand some say they want to see shared information within the community, which is also what all the experts advise for now, but many only want that if it supports their own views they want to hear

Most your 10 questions above can be answered from data collected from over 2 dozen breeders and owners with 3-20 dragons each (one with 400 was not counted as they were a large breeder and entire colony wiped out, excpet 2)... that is what it is, data collected from owners and breeders, not scientific controled studies, those do not exist and I doubt will in our lifetime unless someone wants to put up the $66000 for it that has been estimated to do a 2 year base study with 30 dragons. After what some have been though this week , I am not so sure they would even take it on if there was the funding now.

My dragons have bloodlines from all over, which I suppose would mean the possibility that one carries the virus is more likely. All are in excellent health.

Most those that tested, and had any carriers at all, it was one adult. One has three adults positive. one had a breeding pair and a large breeder did have most his positive, I think only 2 adults were clear.

I would be shocked if any of my animals tested positive for the virus, but then again, there might be many shocked people with healthy animals if this virus is as widespread as some believe.

It's either one way or the other, some really to try to make others think EVERYONE has it, from what we have seen, tested and data collected from many people, that is not so or remotely close.

Unrelated to the prior response to Valley Dragons, it has been emailed to me that someone has twisted my comments prior in this thread and are implying that Wendy, Dr Wentz or me are being less that honest about something. And we wonder why the researchers will not come on and answer questions or want anything to do with this????

I said

in his spare time, has been doing dietary studies, not ongoing adenovirus

What I got back in email BUT DID NOT SAY was "Dan accepted animals from Wendy under the impression of doing continued research on adenovirus. You now state that he is not currently doing research on adenovirus, but instead dietary studies at this time."

No where do I say "instead" "not currently" or "at this time"

So there is no misunderstanding in what I did say, let me spell it out real clear. He did an adenovirus study, when I talked to him last in detail about that study, he was not working on it, he was doing dietary studies, but wanted to do more adenoviral test with unrelated pairings in the future- to test transmission to offspring theories. Prior all he had where related, from he same parent dragons. When the opportunity came up that Wendy had two separate UNRELATED clutches that tested positive, but had big hearty appearing babies that were not showing any signs, PLUS a healthy appearing adult male carrier, he accepted those to do the future studies we wants. Those dragons are only a few months old..... they are future studies as the females need to grow up to breed

Any other problems? please feel free to post them here, in the open to everyone, not sneak around behind someones back and change the statements to others. There has been far too much of that going on for 2 months now

Originally Posted by CheriS

can you share where you read the shed for days part?

I was referring to various forms of adenovirus - most which are easily researched on the net. There is not enough info on reptile andenovirus to be conclusive.


First the only conclusion that I have seen anyone jump to is what is advised by every medical researcher and professor at any university I have seen,.... DO NOT sell infected animals. Everything else is shubjective to the owner what they want to do

By jumping to conclusions, i am referring tot he fact that people should not start killing off their animals until more studies are done. I am supportive of not selling positive animals until we know more about htis virus


The other is confusing, do you want breeders experiences that have dealt with this or not? This is why so many breeders and owners are afraid to say anything at all. On one hand they are attacked by the breeders that have this and want to keep it hushed up, cursed off that it is antidotal, which is about all there is our there right now. (well, yeah, that is why I recommend not panicking)They are a few things that have been made public, but they get picked apart by the same people. (questioning things is part of my nature. Most intelligent people do not accept everything for face value, especially things that are not even well researched) On the other hand some say they want to see shared information within the community, which is also what all the experts advise for now, but many only want that if it supports their own views they want to hear (isn't this EXACTLY what you are doing to me?)



Most your 10 questions above can be answered from data collected from over 2 dozen breeders and owners with 3-20 dragons each (one with 400 was not counted as they were a large breeder and entire colony wiped out, excpet 2)... that is what it is, data collected from owners and breeders, not scientific controled studies, those do not exist and I doubt will in our lifetime unless someone wants to put up the $66000 for it that has been estimated to do a 2 year base study with 30 dragons. After what some have been though this week , I am not so sure they would even take it on if there was the funding now.

Wow, CheriS, that is great. Since you are so on top of things, then why don't you go ahead and answer all these questions for us. You seem to have all the right connections with the people who have dealt with this virus, so you should know the answers!


Most those that tested, and had any carriers at all, it was one adult. One has three adults positive. one had a breeding pair and a large breeder did have most his positive, I think only 2 adults were clear. Ok - so what does that have to do with what I posted?


It's either one way or the other, some really to try to make others think EVERYONE has it, (who's to say who does and who does not have it? I really doubt that there are many breeders that have fully tested ALL of their stock) from what we have seen, tested and data collected from many people, that is not so or remotely close.

Oh, really? How do you know? Because there have been soooo many tests done on this.....

Cheris, I will post my questions on the Sunshine thread for you to answer them so that all can see the answers. Thank you so much for your contribution!
Jamie

Mammal virus and reptile virus- not even close in how they affect the host

I never told anyone to kill anything, not to sell something is a big difference, you jumped to a conclusion that was never said, which was pointed out by another on the BOI post when you did it. Breeders that have dealt with this virus have also posted that they were never told that. Each breeder or owner made their own decisiion after talking to their vets or other medical professionals based on their circumstances. But you can say and post what you want, you see how easy some can jump to conclusions?

Thank you for advising us all not to panic, that is good to remember. not jumping to conclusions is also good to remember.

Most intelligent people do not attack the very people that are trying to do something research wise, when they have done nothing themself. And then others wonder why vets, researchers or scientist will not talk to them, come on a forum and answer their questions.... or even want to mess with any studies for such a group of people and subject themself to the abuse

Exactly doing to you? No

I did not bother to answer, as I was pretty sure you really did not want any from me, I respect your choice in that.

You asked what does that have to do with what you posted? Scroll up and see what you said, it will answer for you, it is pretty clear.

Yes, hundreds of animals tested over the past 4 years, by breeders/owners that have pooled together their experiences, data, history, info on location the carriers came from, possibility of infection and cross infection routes, necropsy reports and pathology. Even identifying another virus that seems to appear in BD populations that was not known before and is benign. A bacteria that was never seen before and highly resistant that appears to be a lot like adenovirus in the symptoms it causes. That is what was advised by the experts like Jacobson, Wentz and Pare in the absence of researcher's controlled studies. There was no funding for that, so no one was doing any or wanted to. When there is, researchers often need several years of data collecting, before they qualify to apply for the grants. Also, assurance to the grant committees that they can secure the stock and it is much easier to get approval with already known infected stock, rather that a purposely infecting of healthy animals. Their advice was for "the community to help themselves", and in turn may help researches, that has already been done with YFD. But, they do no understand that for some, there is no helping! We all could have just sat around moaning about others lack of action, but we decided to try and do something constructive and supportive. You have something better you have accomplished to share?

Cheris, I will post my questions on the Sunshine thread for you to answer them so that all can see the answers. Thank you so much for your contribution!

I was not aware that this thread and area Bearded Dragons Discussion Forum was not available to all

Good grief, CheriS, if you did not know the answers to my questions, then why not just say so instead of posting a long rambling post that really does not explain anything. Hmmm...better be careful, you are starting to sound like Sunshine, lol. You seem very threated by my questions. I just don't get why asking questions about this virus is such a negative thing...

Jamie

I am sorry, I did not know you did not want the other questions in your last post answered either, so sorry to ramble. I will leave them to the people you want to hear from.

Thanks for answering my questions

Jamie I thnk you need to read post #117 on here http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...d=1#post447027

To your questions that really make me wonder about your modivaton, but to be fair I will answer what I can, no matter how childish you want to be

1. Just how prevelant is this virus in the U.S?
No scientific data on that. Many colonies test clear or if they have a positive, it is often only one carrier adult or a breeding pair and those offsprings, not their entire colony. I think Wendy will be happy to discuss this with you
2. What is the actual lethality of the virus?
No scientific data on that, it is on the necropsy reports as the cause of death or conclusions in several dozen necropsy reports. I think Wendy would be glad to post hers if you want
3. Are there different strains with varying degree of lethality?
No scientific data on that, no indication there are more than one, but possible
4. Exactly what ARE the symptoms to look out for?
See Dr Wentz's report http://www.reptilerooms.com/Sections...47-page-1.html
Article with post by some online that is complied from people who experienced it- with updates since 2002 http://www.reptilerooms.com/forumtopic-74.html
Both will show you that the symptoms can have wide ranges, especially in regard to age of the animal
OR talk to Wendy, Suzanne or Andy, all who have spoken about it publicly and are willing to talk to anyone that needs it
5. By what means is the virus passed?
Wentz says direct oral/fecal route from other infected ones, and through the mother to offspring, (not known if from the ovaries or from stool as the eggs pass through the cloaca). Other possibles are animals to hand to animal transmission as indicated from 3 breeders who returned from one show area in NY with it seems to indicate (2 separate times). Also possible animal to furnishings to animal transmission as indicated in about a dozen other cases. No reports of air transmission, in fact it appear even when the opportunity was there, it did not happen.
6. A Vicky stated, how long is the virus shed?
No scientific data on that, to date, ones that have tested positive by owners, have always tested positive, up to 4 years now.
7. Does the virus lay dormant until the animal becomes ill, stressed, infested with parasites, at which point the virus is activated?
No scientific data on that, babies that do show signs of the viral infection within 3 weeks of exposure, all have died within 72 hours after the first signs. Babies that had been shipped off, came down ill and died within a few weeks in the new home of adenovirus, there was no knowledge when they had been exposed and if they were in the incubation period or a longer time since exposure. With older dragons or adult it does seem that there are factors that do weaken them and the virus overpowers them,(the virus was always there, husbandry does NOT cause the virus) such as egg laying, URI or other things that compromise their immune system. There are more indicators that the virus casues the parasite overloads, not the other way around. One thing that has been common in many infected animals in the same colony with ones that are not infected, is the difficulty in controling parasites in those positive.
Is is possible for the virus to spread during a "dormant" period, if in fact, one exists?
No scientific data on that or if there is a even such a thing as a dormant period, Jacobsons says it is possible, but no indicators it is.
8. Is simple husbandry practices, e.g., cleaning with bleach, enough to kill the virus in the environment?
No to bleach, I have been told heat, nolvasans or Quat cleaners(20-30 minutes) are more apt to kill them, It is better than nothing, and SEEMS to work. Hand sanitizers DO NOT work.
If the virus is airborne, what control measures do we use?
There has never been any indicator it is airborne, all indicators are that it is not, as ones without direct contact, but in the same rooms, air flow areas indoors or outdoor locations side by side remained negative next to positive ones, for years.
9. Could a bearded dragon be treated with anti-virals to suppress illness and shedding of the virus?
No Scientific data on that yet
Could an animal being treated with anti-virals be bred and produce healthy, virus-free offspring?
No Scientific data on that yet, Acyclovirs, including Zovirax and another med I could not locate the name of (I am trying to get this to you online as fast as I can, your not real pateint in waiting very long and I can not work that fast) has been been tried when the dragons was showing active illness due to the adenovirus with no success and in 1 positive, no symptoms showing female, that was gravid, but she died following laying.
10. Suppose we selectively bred animals who carry the virus but suffer no ill-effects. Would we eventually have a group of animals virtually resistant to the virus?
Could, not a would as it is not a guarantee it will happen ever. Jacobson says this is possible, it has happened before in other species and many virus including man

Thank you for taking my questions seriously and attempting to answer them.

Jamie

Whiskersmom asks :

I was wondering, if you have an adult dragon that has Adeno, will the dragon be less strong and more susceptible to illnesses? Do you have to be completely sure that this dragons husbandry is 100% correct at all times?

I believe the most qualified person to answer this question would be Wendy. She raised an adenovirus positive animal, Clyde, for 2 years.

Would you please explain, in detail, what you believe to be 100% correct husbandry?

Thanks,
Vickie

Originally Posted by Dachiu

Whiskersmom asks :


I believe the most qualified person to answer this question would be Wendy. She raised an adenovirus positive animal, Clyde, for 2 years.

Would you please explain, in detail, what you believe to be 100% correct husbandry?

Thanks,
Vickie

I can answer my part of this. I honestly think that some parts of husbandry are subjective and there is more that one "right" way to do something.

I kept Clyde on shelf liner with a basking rock at about 105 to 107 degrees. He also had a climbing branch and a corner cave after a year old.

Would spot clean his enclosure daily and clean with nolvasan weekly. He had a 2 ft by 2 ft by 4 ft enclosure with a Megaray MVB, 3 ft fluorescent for brightness and a basking light on a dimmer so it could be adjusted. He was always kept by himself. His lights were on for about 13 or 14 hours on a timer except during brumation. I also had a uvb meter to ensure his uvb light had a high enough output. It was at least 100 micro watts, I want to say probably closer to 140.

He ate greens daily which included mustard, turnip, collard and dandelion. He also ate butternut squash, soaked rep cal pellets and other veggies on occasion. His main protein source as a baby were crickets and silkworms. They were dusted 5 times a week with calcium w/d3 and twice a week with multi vitamins. As an adults his protein has varied between crickets, dusted super worms and dubia roaches. He received protein 2 or 3 times a week as an adult and greens daily.

I misted him daily and would usually soak him weekly for hydration. I disinfected the sink with nolvasan between each dragon soaking.

I can only speak for Clyde's health and the only issue he had was a mild bout of coccidia at a year of age which did clear up. I treated him with acidophiliz+ while on the albon and his appetite remained in tact. I did not have any other issues with him. I do think that good husbandry will reduce the chance of an adeno positive dragon becoming ill. I do not know that for a fact, but it makes sense that would be the case.

I think that about covers it. Please let me know if you have any other questions.