BIG can o worms!!! - Robert Bruce

Originally Posted by isoglut

Where did you get that beauty? Would you recommend a breader? I have 7 month old male and feeding every 5 days. Just moved into larger mice from fuzzies to hoppers. I do not want to power feed, just a reasonable amount. It takes about 2-3 minutes to eat the pre-killed mouse at this point.

I got him from Robert Harper at http://userpent.net/Drymarchon.html

I would definitely recommend him if you are looking! In fact he has an ad for one right now http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=6&de=910290 for a great price!!! If I needed a male I would be all over that!

His user name on here is herbivorous and he has some ads up in here for other dry's as well.

I feed my guy every Monday and Thursday right now, ever since he came to me. Not giant meals just small and steady is all. He has grown like a weed for me and I avoid over stuffing him. He usually has defecated out his last meal before I feed him each time so I know he is typically ready for it. I too am avoiding power feeds. He is on jumbo mice right now and will be ready for small rats real soon. Only thing is that he doesn't like rats, so we will have to work through that little issue ha!


Post some pics of your lady if you get a chance sometime

Sorry, I just had to chime in Getting back to the original topic. Although I respect Robert Bruce with all his Eastern Indigo breeding successes over the decades, I think he did irreparable damage to the captive population by stating what he did back then. Drymarchon in my opinion is one of the least tolerant genus to inbreeding/line breeding. Flip your Indigos over and see how many split scales anterior to the vent there are. I would bet over three quarters of the captive population of Eastern Indigos has aberrancies. Another indication would be the ruffled look of the scales of the tails of captive produced specimens. All initial signs of line breeding/in breeding. After being schooled by the East Coast Cribo Master on Drymarchon husbandry/breeding, it left a bitter taste in my mouth. Thankfully these days, Mr. Bruce is saying exactly the opposite of what he stated back then. I personally am trying to trace the stock of captive Eastern Indigos back to their origins and can come up with only several lines/founder animals. This is what I got after researching the different lines of Indigos in the hobby today. I'm NOT trying to call anyone out here. I apologize if I'm wrong and please correct me as I would love to know if there are any mistakes below. If you know any more information or are breeding indigos, please add on!

EBV/Huffaker=Seib=Binnig=Carmichael, Harper= Bruce x Seib, Smith=Bruce, Herrick=Seib x Bruce, Takata (don't know how many/who's lines he has), Allesandrini (many founder animals came from his line), Bruce (God knows! But it would be nice if he reveals how many exact lineages he has), Kruse (origins from the Bronx Zoo, don't know if there are any pure Kruse lines left), Fuller (many lines including Allesandrini/Kruse amongst others).

Does the split scales affect life longevity or long term health? What are the drawbacks apart from the obvious that it doesn't look perfect? Mr. Herrick said that my guy is the product of a Frevola/Allesandrini breeding. I am no Dry scholar so I dont know if that is good or bad per say, but I am curious about what the split scales really mean to the life and health of the individual animals long term health and lifespan, if any.

I don't think the split scales are detrimental to the snake BUT it is a sign of inbreeding=line breeding. Common signs of inbreeding that the buyer usually does not see are hatchlings that are considerably smaller and less robust than out bred specimens and there have been several accounts of inbred specimens dying for no reason in their 3-4th year of life. Upon necropsy, it was shown that the animal's hearts were enlarged. No infectious agents were identified and it looked very similar to congestive heart failure in humans. I'm not trying to knock anyone's animals with split scales. Just trying to help the community identify visible signs of inbreeding. The people I know who had these animals were crushed after rearing up what seemed like healthy 3-4 year old indigos and having them just expire for no reason.

Wow yeah that would be a heart break for sure to lose one so early. Hopefully it is a very rare occurrence.

I got mine from Bruce last year he said that one of the parents was a wild caught species. My male is a July 2011 i feed him once a week and he's about 2.5feet long and he was the first of the group to start taking food. Is that small or normal size for them at around this time, or whats a normal size for yearling? I dont want a runt, but I'd still love 'em!! Another question, is feeding an Indigo's better once a week or multiple times best for the animal? Are split scales normally all over or more towards the rear of the animal?

Originally Posted by TheVikinG

I got mine from Bruce last year he said that one of the parents was a wild caught species. My male is a July 2011 i feed him once a week and he's about 2.5feet long and he was the first of the group to start taking food. Is that small or normal size for them at around this time, or whats a normal size for yearling? I dont want a runt, but I'd still love 'em!! Another question, is feeding an Indigo's better once a week or multiple times best for the animal? Are split scales normally all over or more towards the rear of the animal?

I am no expert but from the research I have done in the past I would say that your fellow is growing at a pretty decent pace. Mine is almost right at 4 feet now and was born in August of '10, so he is basically a year older than yours. I have heard of breeders having some up to 5 feet by a year of age, but that's with a lot of meals I bet. Not super sure though. I think we are holding par here so don't fret it. I would say though that you should probably bump up the meals for your guy to at least twice a week. Not huge meals though, just a decent size prey item is all that doesn't make a big old belly bulge. Smaller more frequent meals is much more the recommendation I have been advised to do with these guys. Especially when they are young. Adults you can slow down with, but hatchling to adulthood they should be fed more often. Go to that link I posted above (http://userpent.net/Drymarchon.html) and read the care sheet and info that the breeder of mine has posted on his site. Lots of good info there. As far as the split scale thing, from what I know it's mostly down towards the vent, so yeah just the the rear and not the whole belly. Post some pics or your guy on here if you can too

The genetic issues with the eastern indigos are discussed to great lengths. Even though it is prohibited to take new blood from the wild so to speak, who would put it in writing?

As a legal approach I obtained some European eastern indigos by way of a research permit we utilized for a publication on feeding behaviors. Even though the easterns in Europe are in-bred for the last 25+ years there are a few documentable "wild caught specimens" introduced. My point I will breed the european animals to the US individuals I have from several supposed maternal lines and "hopefully" introduce some new blood that way. I figured it was worth a shot since the 2 populations originated from different stock. Europeans seem to have purchased and "kept" easterns long before the US herpers became interested actually began to breed them. It's a mystery.


Bill Lamoreaux

Wow, I just read the post about Robert Bruce having a "wild caught" breeding specimen. Personally I would never let that be known or posted. USFW is monitoring the forums on Kingsnake and probably here. Mainly for people threatening to release big pythons etc. Not smart to admit you are illegal when a felony conviction could sink you and your family.

Bill Lamoreaux
All opinions are solely mine. I do not want a bunch of posts slamming me for just my opinion. Thanks for your consideration.

He told me in such a broad generality, that it could have been a descendant of a wild caught species that he obtained many years ago--I'm not sure.