Kill all the lawyers,...except ours

Yesterday, I called the Federal Wildlife Office in Atlanta to check on giving skins to Matt's project, {all is kosher with that as far as the Feds are concerned}. And to inquire about a breeding loan I am working on between myself, and Zoo Atlanta. While the Zoo and I are enthusiastic about the possibilities, the Federal officials seem only interested in getting their hundred bucks as many times as possible, and making me fill out the same packet of papers as many times as possible. As far as the actual laws which regulate such are concerned, I have read the whole thing, but to me it just sounds like blah, Blah, blah. I just can't get my brain around it all. When I start asking questions, I get a slightly different answer from each person I talk to, including Victoria Davis. So it is difficult to know how to legally proceed. I think Vic is a very nice, helpful, and kind person, but she is no lawyer either. And even if she was a lawyer, she works for the Feds. And if a person isn't extremely careful, they could very easily find themselves in hot water by listening to the wrong opinion. And when you get into indigo snakes, you eventually find yourself facing legal ambiguity with regard to the interstate commerce permit system, and associated laws. Personally I think it's time for an overhaul of the system, but,...until then, it would be very nice if we, [the indigo breeding community], had an expert to interpret the law and or go to bat for us if need be. It would be nice if we had a lawyer, or law firm on our side to help guide us, and keep everyone, including the government honest, and out of trouble. It would be nice if we had an expert to ask. So I am making the following proposal;

Lets find a way to retain a lawyer, or lawyers for all of us. That way the next time there is a question about this mess, he/she/they can guide us, and protect us so that we can continue to work with the species we love, without fear of crossing some ambiguous legal line. We can all rest easier knowing we have someone on our side who does understand the associated regulations, and has our best intrest at heart.

I have been talking about Indigos Forever, and how I plan to raise money with it. I think this is one more thing we will be raising money for. But I also think that in order to enjoy the benefits of such, each person should have to belong to the breeders association/Indigos Forever,[yet to be officially formed] and pay appropriate dues, or make appropriate contributions, and follow our guidelines for husbandry and breeding. With legal council we can then protect ourselves from legal problems, and we can make Indigos Forever and the breeders association into an official, legal, not for profit entity. I think at some point it will have to happen anyway, so it may as well be sooner, rather than later. This way, when we start thinking about doing anything like breeding loans, or taking DNA samples, etc., we don't have to decide for ourselves what is the best legal course of action. We don't have to rely on friends, or Federal employees to give us good sound legal advice. We can ask our experts. And they will work for our best intrest instead of having to rely on friends and the feds to tell us how to proceed. As it stands now, the folks at Atlanta could tell me that I have to strip naked, paint myself green, and sing the associated Muppet song in public in order to be legal, and I would really have no choice but to comply if I wanted to proceed with diversification of the captive gene pool. With a lawyer, I could simply say no, I don't think so, and here's why. Or my lawyer could tell them for me.

It may also be important to note that I was informed that there are those in the Federal Government who would seek to put a stop to all private possesion, breeding and commerce of indigo snakes. They would rather that regular folks were hands off, and take away what we love. And if they get the chance, they'll do it. One way to keep them from getting that chance, and to fight them if they try, is to retain legal council. I am going to do it. Wether this council works for me, and or the rest of the private breeder community, is up to you all. Let me know what you think, and how we can make this happen for all of us. But if you wish to enjoy the associated benefits of such, you'll have to pony up some bucks with me.
T.

Afternoon,

I'll pony up some cash for the cause. It'd be nice to find out why exports to Canada can't happen. Our indigos are, I'm sure, weakened because of the lack of genetic diversity.

Thanks,

Chris Rodgers
Ontario, Canada

I am currently enrolled in an animal law course and am studying one of the few animal law textbooks. Unless you already have someone in mind I can give you the name of the editors of the text and they may be able to suggest an expert who may have your same interests.

Yes please! Let's find that expert. After we find the right one, and determine costs, I'll pass the hat.
T.

I am emailing that info to you.

First, I believe this is a wonderful idea and have proposed such in the past, though nothing came of it. However, times change, as do opinions, and I believe enough government regulation restricting the captive husbandry of herpetofauna amongst the private sector has occurred to create a stir amongst the community and make everyone realize they are not totally immune or flying under the radar from such. Having said that, there are several attorneys who are involved in herpetoculture or the keeping of herpetofauna as pets and I believe such should be approached to this regard, as they would have a vested interest in such matters. Also, I do not believe such an endeavor should be limited to the keeping of D. couperi alone, but rather anyone and everyone who maintains herpetofauna, as we are but a fraction of the community being affected by legislators making uninformed decisions and one only need to visit a few different forums to realize this.
Chris, the borders are not completely closed for the importation / exportation of D. couperi into and out of the US, but the process is more stringent and the division which handles the issuance of international permits contends such should only be granted for specimens to be utilized for educational purposes, while the division handling domestic interstate commerce permits tends to favor captive husbandry projects. With a good deal of patience, paper work and perseverance, you should have no problems acquiring such a permit.
In closing, I would like to remind everyone, the government agencies involved with the protection of wildlife cannot restructure themselves or the regulations they are positioned to maintain and enforce, as all such activities must be approved by congress at the federal level and state senates at the state level, both of which rely on information provided them from the organizations involved and various members of the public to make informed decisions.
As for the number of times one must complete the permit process, such is based solely upon government policy and procedure and there really is very little that will change this, as such is the life blood of government.

Best regards,

Jeff

It might be a more expensive and difficult project than it seems.For example, many lawyers use Westlaw for research, but do not subscribe outside their own State,and its related Federal District/Circuit.

Therefore,for a Florida lawyer like myself, for example, in dealing with an indigo issue arising in California, I would have to go to the national Federal sources,California Federal sources,and California state law,and the client would have to pay for the higher out of area research costs.

Plus,it always takes more time($) to research out of state law and MANY lawyers will refuse to even do so because it is much more difficult to use the resources,and they are concerned with their own liability in unfamilar areas.....

I was hoping you would interject some of you wisdom into this thread, and while I thought about it, I didn't want to call you out! ;0)
Thank you for your insight and sharing your wisdom to this regard...

Thanks again,

Jeff

Originally Posted by epidemic

I was hoping you would interject some of you wisdom into this thread, and while I thought about it, I didn't want to call you out! ;0)

Not a problem, Jeff.

If I did not live in Florida, I probably would have already researched many of these issues for my own information, but I figured it a waste of time.

I did actually talk to a guy with a Florida permit this week, I felt I was in the presence of a unicorn.......

It's too bad the "Sunshine State" will not issue incidental take permits, to allow for D. couperi to be collected by those willing to work with the species from areas designated for development. I'd love to move back to Florida, as would my wife, but I just couldn't part with the snakes I have worked so long and hard for and with.
Now that you've found a unicorn, I guess it's time to start looking for that pot of gold at the end of the rainbow!

Thanks again, Lloyd,

Jeff