Albino Ball Python Died!!

Adam,

You really are something. You HAVE NOT answered all the questions put to you yet. You can not even keep your own story, timeline and situations straight from one post to another. You have done nothing in this thread but throw accusations, false statements, and try to get anyone to fall for and believe your unproven, unsubstantiated story.

Keep poking but the only holes we have here not being probed are Kevin’s.

I would poke holes in his story. But as you can see. What he has posted here does not in anyway differ from other posts he has made here.

you on the other hand keep differing and swaying back and forth.

a. you do not want a refund or replacement
b. then you mention 65/35 split

a. in a paragraph you said you do not want insinuations
b. in the same exact paragraph you say your snake died of genetics. (which was later found to be false)

a. your partner drove 24-36 hours straight
b. your partner did not drive 24-36 hours straight.

a. you claim your partner bought only one albino fron NERD
b. it turns out your partner was mistaken in his information and actually bought an albino and a het fron NERD.

a. in one post you say the picture was taken less than five days before death (meaning 1-4)
b. in another post it died within 12 hours

a. you state the het that was bought by your partner was a yearling
b. NERD says it was a litter mat to an albino your partner bought. (another misinformation by your partner)

a. you call one of the employees looking for a replacement
b. then you post that you talked to Kevin and told him you are "looking for nothing" (example of your wishy wahsy, back and forth, change the story as I go along)

a. "I’m also not sure what if anything is due to me, as the animal did not die of a car issue but a genetic one."
b."I've just gotten done looking at ten pages of posts. I have yet to see where I've said the snake died of a genetic issue?"

a. in one post you say you do not want to finger point...you don't want to place blame.
b in another you say "I feel you are at least 35% at fault in the snake’s death and 100% at fault for selling an animal too young without mentioning it."

a. " This snake was born the same month of the show, something not mentioned at the time and only recently brought to my attention". (shame on the breeder forpurposely hiding this fact from the buyer)
b. "The reason that it's date of birth didn't come into play was because other animals were purchased at the same time and those dates were of higher concern then the albino ball. "( WAIT !!!! on second thought....the buyer never cared to ask)

you insinuated that Kevin was hiding the date of birth at the time of sale.
We then later find out that your partner never cared to ask.
Your partner was also wrong in telling you which animals he bought from whom.
Your partner was also wrong in telling you the age of the het he bought.
then you go on to say that Kevin refuses to admit any possible mistakes on his part. well as I can see it....you too are refusing to admit to mistakes your partner may have made.

you still never answered how old you were.
And you never answere my other wuestions...but you sure claim you did.

Adam. We can't get the whole story from you.
as far as Nerd goes.....he states the animals were feeding fine. You also stated the animals were feeding fine. what holes am I supposed to poke?

He states he waters his animals.
We have someone posting that they witnessed him watering his animals.... what holes am I supposed to poke?

In doing so you will find the animal died due to a condition over a long period of time and it could not have played out in the 6 weeks the animal was in my care. .

Let me get this straight. 6 weeks was to short a time for your animal to die of this condition. but 1-3 weeks with the breeder is long enough time?

What happened to my snake has happened 1000s of times over the past 10 years all in animals less then 2 months old.
To drive that point home, a local pet store bought 500 CH balls last year and based their price on a 50% loss. .

Wait!!!! so you know that deaths like these happen frequently and is in fact a fact of life? so you are here complaining about what again?

Sorry for the strong words used earlier.

I just do not understand, if Adam had a Necropsy done. then were is the report and or even a receipt from the Vet. He proclaims he is a great breeder. But he still can not scan all these paper to show us. Heck I keep all receipts for 7 years and If I were him I would be scanning them off to show everyone.


Ok he may not have a picture of the dead snake if he really believed, things happen and was never intending on any kind of retribution.

Adam says he breeds and buys hundreds of animals a year and this is the first one to die in 5 year. I find that hard to believe, but maybe he is just that good.


The fact is people ask Adam questions and all he has to do is scan and post and if he has already answered them once then copy and paste, or tell us again. Some people will most likely just skim thru this and may only see you failing to answer simple questions put to you.

<b>If you have any proof about any of this do so. To drive you point home. If you want people to start asking Kevin(NERD) questions then you need to answer all the questions put to you.</b>

I may be mistaken but aren't you a moderator in here Ritchie? Many of us are trying fairly hard to help keep this board a positive place. You are not setting a fairly positive example of how posts and threads in this board and are one of the causes that turn people off. This board should be somewhat neutral or at least the Webslave and Moderators should be. I will answer your one sided questions only because I'm hiding nothing and Kevin's avoidance of them is due to that fact that he is.

Before addressing your questions Ritchie, I recommend that you re-read your posts and ask yourself what your motivation is for being here. Myself, I'm not here to contribute positively to people questions and issues. If you have chosen that you would like to phrase and address your questions the way you have then I think you may want to rethink weather or not you should be moderating a place you can't be neutral about.

1. how many snakes were bought.

Ritchie can you please show us the respect of reading our posts. We take the time to answers these questions for people and I show you the respect of reading your posts. Can you please do the same in return?

Roughly 60 snakes were bought.

2. did your partner write down any of the info

Much info was given by the breeders so there was no need to write it down. The reason I thought he only bought the albino female from Kevin was we bought a yearling from Brian and I was thinking the other het was a yearling bought at the same time because it was so much larger then the albino.

3. did your partner depend on his memory to keep the info straight (specially after a 36 hour straight through drive)

I think the above answers that but in the interest of redundancy I will say I can't think of anybody who didn't supply something in the way of the snakes genetics or feeding. However, there were really no two snakes to mix up as we bought adult bredli, green trees and things of that nature. Many like the Hypo Boas that were fairly breeder specific.

4.Did your partner bring the necessary suplies to care for the snakes on the trip or did he just leave them in the tupperwares or pillow cases.

No he didn't bring anything. After the show he stopped at WalMart. All of the babies were placed in shoe boxes with deli cups hot glued to the bottom for water. The adults like the Bredli were kept in their pillowcases though. When I got the snakes they were in shoeboxes something I assumed was done when he got home however cleared up since that it was done in Daytona. Many of the questions you've put under the scope weren't addressed at the time, as I didn't say "holy **** these are great looking snakes, where did you get the shoe boxes?"

5. Did your partner maybe confuse one snakes info for another?

Maybe, however, Kevin didn't know knew the snakes very well. So much in fact that's where you slipped and said "I remember those snake because I didn't even know if they were going to hatch in time for the show". We're only talking about 3 snakes here, a pair of albinos and a het. The one not bought from Kevin was 400+ grams and male so confusion wouldn't have been easy.

6. Where does your partner live?

Tucson and just in case you're asking. Drivers use the same time, normally the time they start in for their log throughout their trip.

7. was he working at the time?

There yes, on the way home no.

a. you do not want a refund or replacement
b. then you mention 65/35 split

I expected nothing when I made contact with Kevin. However, after speaking with him the information he supplied me with as to the animals age and so on I felt a 65/35 split of fault would be fair. I also felt a replacement of a het would be fair. Now as I get more information that I will get posted as I confirm it I feel I know why Kevin can't replace all of the animals that end up dying.

a. in a paragraph you said you do not want insinuations
b. in the same exact paragraph you say your snake died of genetics. (which was later found to be false)

Lack of education on the issue. Thanks very much to the knowledgeable Cheri we are all much smarter on the topic. If you took that statement as an insinuation you were incorrect. It was a statement of facts based on the knowledge I had I the time. I later found out I was incorrect and that issue has nothing to do with the age of the snake or the lack of care it may have gotten before I purchased it. Something I have a right to be worried about based on the proof we have Kevin on feeds his snakes as little as one meal per month.

a. your partner drove 24-36 hours straight
b. your partner did not drive 24-36 hours straight.

I said my partner drop straight threw, where do you see something wrong with that? I never changed that story. The truck went from Daytona to Tucson only having stopped to eat or shower and for gas. The way I would call it that's defined as straight threw.

a. you claim your partner bought only one albino fron NERD
b. it turns out your partner was mistaken in his information and actually bought an albino and a het fron NERD.

My partner did only buy one Albino from NERD Ritchie. The het as I said above was thought by me to be bought from Brian by myself however Kevin and my partner cleared that up for me fairly quickly.


a. in one post you say the picture was taken less than five days before death (meaning 1-4)
b. in another post it died within 12 hours

Ritchie, I think 12 or even 1 hour for that matter is less then 5 days. I could be mistaken on this but I'm fairly sure that's correct.

a. you state the het that was bought by your partner was a yearling
b. NERD says it was a litter mat to an albino your partner bought. (another misinformation by your partner)

Another by myself not my partner. The het was a lot bigger and because of this I thought it was a yearling. I have this snakes littler mate and have been thinking about taking it in to be examined. I may opt not to as the snake is in great shape, may have been born 4 days before the albino or something like that. However, I think the fact that I have two littermates from that clutch and one is thriving further adds to my case the issue happend before I got the snakes.

a. you call one of the employees looking for a replacement
b. then you post that you talked to Kevin and told him you are "looking for nothing" (example of your wishy wahsy, back and forth, change the story as I go along)

Called one of them and told the story after I mentioned I should talk to Kevin about this. The first time replacing the snake came up was in a conversation with Kevin when he said "I'll tell you right now I'm not replacing that snake".

Another thing I may have missed or misread. Where in this thread was this point brought up? Just asking cause I don't recall this and if it's not in this thread I'd like to know where you would have gotten this information?

a. "I’m also not sure what if anything is due to me, as the animal did not die of a car issue but a genetic one."
b."I've just gotten done looking at ten pages of posts. I have yet to see where I've said the snake died of a genetic issue?"

Correct and? Not sure what you're trying to point out with that. Maybe you could elaborate a little bit on what it is you're trying to say. This issue is a dead horse to all but yourself. I'm willing entertain you as long as you'd like on the issue though if you really see it as going someplace.

a. in one post you say you do not want to finger point...you don't want to place blame.
b in another you say "I feel you are at least 35% at fault in the snake’s death and 100% at fault for selling an animal too young without mentioning it."

One statement based on the information I had at that time and the other based on the information I had at that time. You reach some point where you've gathered enough information that either you feel you were more at fault or you feel the other party is. You happened upon a post where that information had culminated to the point I'd come to a conclusion and expressed it. I also wanted to address that I was at fault to some extent as the question had been asked.

a. " This snake was born the same month of the show, something not mentioned at the time and only recently brought to my attention". (shame on the breeder forpurposely hiding this fact from the buyer)
b. "The reason that it's date of birth didn't come into play was because other animals were purchased at the same time and those dates were of higher concern then the albino ball. "( WAIT !!!! on second thought....the buyer never cared to ask)

Ritchie, again can you please read this whole thread? I'd mentioned that they said the animal was feeding and in great health. They mentioned the animal had fed at least 5-6 times. That was good enough to establish the snake was eating and doing well. Now if the snake had been born that month that number of feedings wouldn't be possible. Even more so because we've established that in Kevin’s care that statement could hold true for even a 5-6 month old snake.

you insinuated that Kevin was hiding the date of birth at the time of sale.
We then later find out that your partner never cared to ask.

The first isn't a quote by myself. You've laid this out to establish errors in my story not my story and your assumptions.


Your partner was also wrong in telling you which animals he bought from whom.

No and although you've now address this for the third time in a single post the error was on my end and well laid out above.

Your partner was also wrong in telling you the age of the het he bought.
then you go on to say that Kevin refuses to admit any possible mistakes on his part. well as I can see it....you too are refusing to admit to mistakes your partner may have made.

Again, nothing to do with my partner but an assumption by myself. I'm to blame for this one although I'm thankful it's been pointed out and it seems to make my case a stronger one. I also mentioned there was a 200 gram difference in the two. 200 grams was a number I picked to illuminate the fact there was an extreme size difference and was not the actual number.

you still never answered how old you were.

Hey Ritchie, what's your SS#? What does this have to do with this and the snake I'm talking about?

[b}And you never answere my other wuestions...but you sure claim you did.[/b]

Example?


Adam. We can't get the whole story from you.
as far as Nerd goes.....he states the animals were feeding fine. You also stated the animals were feeding fine. what holes am I supposed to poke?

I'm not even going to run this down all the way.

1) Did he lie to Will about dropping the price?
2) When was this snake hatched?
3) Did it feed 5-6 times like he said?
4) Does he respond himself or have somebody else do it?
5) Why does he feed his snakes so poorly?
6) Was the snake given water on the way down to the show?
7) Was the snake given water while at the show?
8) How many times had the snake eaten?
9) Who bought the other animals from this clutch?
10) Have any other deaths like this been brought to his attention?
11) Was money his motivation for bringing such young animals to the show?

I'll stop there and only tell you Ritchie. Kevin CAN NOT answer these questions because he will shot himself in the foot if he does. He has no clue what proof is out there and will risk being caught in a lie if he does. You bring up Kevin's reputation? Well if it's fine he should be able to answer the above. They aren't tough questions.

He states he waters his animals.
We have someone posting that they witnessed him watering his animals.... what holes am I supposed to poke?

On the way to the show?

Ritchie, I'm sure you will have another list of 20-30 questions only focused at myself. I'll respond to them as they come.

Thanks a lot for reading this long drawn out post,
Adam Block

1) Did he lie to Will about dropping the price?
2) When was this snake hatched?
3) Did it feed 5-6 times like he said?
4) Does he respond himself or have somebody else do it?
5) Why does he feed his snakes so poorly?
6) Was the snake given water on the way down to the show?
7) Was the snake given water while at the show?
8) How many times had the snake eaten?
9) Who bought the other animals from this clutch?
10) Have any other deaths like this been brought to his attention?
11) Was money his motivation for bringing such young animals to the show?

1) Does it matter? You are here talking about YOUR snake...
2) Good question, one that is legitimate.
3) There is no real reason to assume he's lying, there were no inconsistencies in his statements.
4) If someone is responding with his login name (His wife or an employee) and he has given them his password in order to do so, it doesn't matter WHO writes it, they are acting as his representative.
5) You have yet to actually prove he feeds his snakes poorly, there was a scanned feed card with nothing on it that significantly indicated that it was from NERD... while I hesitate to call the individual who posted it a liar, I have never gotten a feed card with any animal from NERD and I have purchased a few. I can easily write up my own feed card with different colored inks and with seperate sets of handwriting and scan it in saying I bought Tuataras from you, wouldn't make it definitive evidence.
6) Another legitimate question although... even if it was not, it would not constitute any PROOF that the condition developed during that period of time. Gout doesn't always take long periods of time to develop, the animal is well outside of the guarantee period and you haven't got a leg to stand on in your demands for a refund. Sure it's possible that it developed while in Kevin's care but it is equally possible that it developed under Your care, no specific and definitive blame can be attached.
7) While I did not attend Daytona and did not verify the conditions down there, I do know that Kevin has a habit of providing water at shows no more than a few hours from his facility. If he does it locally, why would he deviate from the practice when on a longer trip?
8) A semi-legitimate question... it had eaten enough for you to purchase it, at several times while in your care and you are seemingly attributing numbers as coming from Kevin... if he said Five or six times, then the answer is "Five or six times." so there's really no reason to ask it again.
9) Whoever did, they apparently either haven't had a problem, which shoots down much of the credibility in your arguments attempting to place blame on Kevin or they don't read this message board... If they don't choose to respond to your requests to come forward, you can't reasonably demand that Kevin release the information.
10) Another semi-legitimate question... I've personally always found Kevin to be a very honest guy who is generally willing to go out of his way to ensure customer satisfaction when it's still within the realm of a reasonable request... if he had a number of people reporting a problem all over a specific clutch, I would wager that he would contact the other buyers and inform them of the potential problem. A lone problem from a known pain in the ass customer months after the animal supposedly died who wasn't even the original purchaser... I would blow them off too.
11) You haven't yet actually proved they were "that young" you have merely decided that this is the case and are basing invalid arguments on unproven conjecture. As a second matter, why else would an individual bring an animal to a show other than to potentially sell it and make a reasonable profit?

Now Adam... your age becomes relevant to this thread because YOU mentioned having twenty three years of experience as a means of establishing your position that YOUR care of the animal was beyond reproach. Specifically that the death and condition could not have evolved while in your care because you have been successfully keeping the animals in question for over two decades... If you are not in your mid to late thirties at the very youngest, you do not have twenty three years of quality experience which makes your statements tantamount to a PUBLIC LIE and establishes your willingness to deviate from the truth in order to get your own way... Now, it'll only take a few seconds to tap in two digits as a response so...

How old are you and can you verify your twenty three years of experience?!

It honestly doesn't surprise me that Kevin hasn't responded to this thread, there's so much pure crap spewing forth from Adam's keyboard that it requires hip waders in order to respond.

Cheri, while the VB message boards will tell you when a user is logged in and which forum(s) they are in at the moment, it doesn't distinguish the particular thread OR note when a user has been idle for a period of time. I do agree that Kevin (or someone acting as his representative) has probably read much of the thread but... it can not be stated with absolute certainty unless someone cares to verify it with the gentleman personally.

And... as a bit of a side note, my personal understanding of Ritchie's position as a moderator was that he was given the position in order to gain the ability to shut down threads on the classifieds sections to prevent erasure of damning evidence and his role was stated as being that of a detective/watchdog rather than the unbiased position and mediator that WebSlave and Ken fill.

Although I know Kevin has Kara post for him as of yet I wasn't privy to the fact you were also a representative of NERD. I'm not sure why you asked those questions but that's your time.

twenty three years of quality experience

Can you show me where I made this statement? I don't see that anyplace although it may be an oversight on my end.

your age becomes relevant to this thread because YOU mentioned having twenty three years of experience as a means of establishing your position that YOUR care of the animal was beyond reproach.

Wow, you've come to quite the deduction on this. I'd never said anything of the sort. I merely mentioned the amount of time I'd been keeping snakes. In the world I know more then 99% of people when it comes to snakes. But, when it comes down to it I know maybe 10% of what there is to learn about them. Far from perfect and very far from knowing it all.

However, this animal died of a water issue. 23 years with even just one snake is long enough to establish the basic needs of the animal. Heat, water, food and those things.

Seamus, for a teenager you are very well spoken. You speak very glibly and I enjoy seeing it from such an enthusiastic young man. While I encourage you to keep up the good work I think your energies and efforts may be better applied in a positive direction. Just a though as I'm sure you enjoy constructive criticism as much as I do.

Adam Block

Although I know Kevin has Kara post for him as of yet I wasn't privy to the fact you were also a representative of NERD.

I am a customer of NERD... Kevin has always treated me right, the animals were always of the highest quality and I feel that he deserves the support of people who are well aware of the reasons he has the positive reputation that he does.

Can you show me where I made this statement? I don't see that anyplace although it may be an oversight on my end.

First page, your second post...

What is very hard to deal with is the fact that I've been keeping snakes for 23 years and have a good understanding of their care needs.

Was this not a statement claiming that you had twenty three years of experience? Was this not a statement that furthered the position that the care issue didn't occur in your care because you had that experience?

But, when it comes down to it I know maybe 10% of what there is to learn about them.

Adam... you know nowhere near 10% of "What there is to know" about snakes... Just more evidence of your massive ego, detached from reality.

However, this animal died of a water issue.

You still don't know that either... The cause of death may have been established as gout via this (possibly imaginary) necropsy, but the cause of the gout has not been determined with any degree of certainty.

Seamus, for a teenager you are very well spoken.

If I were a teenager, I would be quite well spoken... I am not a teenager however... But good try there Adam, valiant effort, although you still didn't answer the question of how old YOU are.

Gout in Reptiles
Holly Frisby, DVM, MS
Veterinary Services Department, Drs. Foster & Smith, Inc.


Gout is a common disease among reptiles, including snakes, iguanas, monitor lizards, and tortoises.

What causes gout?

Uric acid is one of the end breakdown products of dietary protein in certain animals, including terrestrial reptiles. The uric acid is removed from the blood by the kidneys and excreted in the urine. Gout can occur if the level of uric acid in the blood exceeds the ability of the kidneys to remove it. The uric acid may crystallize in the joints which is termed "articular gout". It may also be deposited in various organs ("visceral gout"), such as the liver, spleen, pericardial sac (the covering of the heart), kidneys, and lungs, and mucous membranes, such as the mouth. When the uric acid crystallizes in tissues it forms small, white nodules called "tophi."

There are two types of gout. In primary gout, the high uric acid level is a result of an abnormal breakdown of protein. Primary gout is thought to be hereditary in humans. In secondary gout, the high level is due to the inability of the kidneys to adequately excrete the uric acid. This can be caused by medications, chronic diseases, kidney disease, starvation, improper diet, decreased water intake or chronic dehydration, and other environmental factors which affect the kidneys' ability to eliminate uric acid. A common cause of gout is feeding animal proteins (e.g.; dog or cat food) to vegetarian reptiles, whose digestive systems cannot properly digest and metabolize animal-based protein. In these cases, large amounts of uric acid are produced and the kidneys cannot adequately eliminate them.

Adam,
I hate to be a pest but this statement can't be proven to be totally correct until the necropsy reveals how it developed gout and eliminates all possible avenues of how the animal developed gout.

However, this animal died of a water issue.

Please refer to the type in bold from the article above.
Without all the possible avenues ruled out as the cause, you or your vet can't say with a 100% certainty that lack of water was the predominant factor. As proven in the articles I have posted in this thread, there are many possible causes as to how your animal developed gout like symptoms. I asked you early and you have not answered it yet. How did you vet determine it had gout? Where did they find the uric acid crystals? On organs, in the blood stream, where? If in the blood stream what was the level she claimed to have found? What organs did she see the crystals on or in? Were the kidneys atrophied or hypertrophied?
I have an extensive medical background and know what I am discussing and these items are paramount in proving your claims of gout. But you did insunate that it was genetic and furhter speculated that Kevin hadn't watered them causing the gout cycle to begin. Medical or genetic proof is need at this point to substantiate your claims.

Could you please clarify these points for me/us.
Thanks

Seamus I couldn't agree with you more.
I've been a customer of Kevin and NERD since '99 his animals and customer service have been top notch. All the animals were healthy, plump and the best eaters that I own. And guess what? None have come with a feeding card!
I have always been extremely happy with the animal's health, size and appearance. 100%HAPPY!
Adam, how can you accuse Kevin of feeding his animals only once a month
Where Is the scan of the necropsy report?
Where is the proof to all this that you are claiming?
Rob

Seamus Haley

First I think that its funny that Rusty posted the feed card and invoice and every one ignores it or says that it is not from NERD. I will say that the feed card came from NERD because I was there when it arrived with the snakes!!!! Now maybe NERD does not normally send the card, But they did this time. I saw the snakes on arrival and witnessed them being weighed and Rusty's statment on the weight is correct. So the bottom line is that in this case NERD had not feed the snakes properly. Now I am not saying that all there animals are not feed correctly, only in this case.

Thanks Rick Cunningham