Has this ever happened to you,,?

Of course I understand for the most part.. and I am certainly NOT a big fan of PETA or a rabid animal rights activist! Why on earth would I participate in something so profound if I thought it would have negative ramifications on my own herp business? I honestly think that if you and Seamus knew the entire 2-1/2 year story, you would feel differently. If you would like to have me post the facts, including correspondence, I'll be more than happy to.

I suppose I shouldn't have been too surprized about the responses from some of the members, but I certainly did not expect to be attacked personally over it... I would have rather been given an opportunity to justify it first.

I did actually have something similar happen to me, I have a saltwater tank, and the best place to get healthy marine fish is at this place that takes very poor care of its few reptiles it has. The first time I saw thier leopard geckos, I was appauled. They were terribly thin. So I bought two dozen crickets, walked over to the gecko tank, and dropped them in. I turned around and told the cashier who I believe was the daughter of the owner that I won't be buying anything ever again from them because of the fact that they are starving their reptiles to death.

hee hee hee, I felt almost evil for being so malicous

It's been awhile since my initial postings on this thread and I believe I can explain my position without getting uppity... It is an issue I feel very strongly about however, so my language will be forceful, nothing can be done about that while maintaining my stance.

You had a problem with a local store... Ignore the name of the chain for the moment, you had a serious problem with a local store...

It was bad... but obviously not bad enough to be simply shut down by whatever local branch of law enforcement you have that deals with animal abuse issues... Which tells me right there that, as bad and unacceptable as it might have been, there were other avenues for fixing the problem.

The fact that the local DA is filing civil charcges is tantamount to saying "There was nothing to substantiate criminal neglect charges and put them out of business (prevent them from selling animals) without needing to go to court."

Now... what you have done is invited additional regulation and interference in the Pet Trade by government agencies... but you have done this by acting in the capacity of someone "Inside the trade" which is a far more dangerous position to work from than the PeTA and HSUS whack-jobs. The majority of the country might think that those rabid drooling anti-human pro-money activists are genuine and all for helping animals, but there are still enough people willing to combat their attempts to ban the keeping of animals (any animals) in captivity (for any reason) so that most their more radical attempts to support anti-animal legislation fail.

However, the Petco case sets a precident... It's already had some really stupid ramifications, that care sheet law in California for starters, handing out care sheets for feeder insects and needing to have a care sheet for every animal you sell... any idea how mnay species go through an aquarium specialty shop in a given week? Species that don't have "simple" caresheets written up? And the page listed as being "official" caresheets... has seven herps. Seven... and I think half the sheets were written by and reccomend Kraplin, who quite honestly might be a physical incarnation of evil.

One of the other major effects that this had was the production of some of the most inaccurate media coverage I have ever seen. I wouldn't trust my TV any further than I could throw it anyway... But the sort of nonsensical crap it spewed forth when the announcement of the civil suit was first made was even worse than usual... "Reptiles are major carriers of deadly salmonella." "Reknown zoo experts (unnamed) say that it's impossible to truly care for one of these animals in a captive environment without extensive and expensive zoo quality facilities." and more and more of the same. Misinforming the public is not a good way to preserve the pet industry.

What this results in is an increased support for PeTA style lunatics and their particular brand of politics across the country as uneducated and unfortunately ignorant individuals see what's going on and form seriously biased opinions. And THAT results in a much greater chance of those attempts to pass pet banning bills succeeding all over the country... or at the very least, pet inhibiting bills and more badly worded laws about handing out care sheets.

Taking it one step further... it's a lot harder to get a law introduced where there was no similar law before... But once something is "on the books" as a law or an ordinance or statute, it's a fairly simple matter to simply change the wording. "Snakes over ten feet in length require a permit" changes to "Snakes over ten feet are illegal to own" "Eight feet" "Six Feet" "Snakes are illegal to own" the animal rights activists know this, they support small steps because once the foot is in the door, it's easier to pass whatever crap they want. The more public support they get, the easier it becomes. The more press time they get, the more public support.

What you did, started for whatever altruistic reasons, has inhibited the ability of individuals within the industry to do business in the way they had in the past, made it more difficult for ANYONE regardless of how healthy their animals were, to successfully make money... and lets be honest here for a moment... when they can't make money, a lot of people stop trying. The fact that everything I had found online did not have your name associated with it... but DID have PeTA's support and Kraplin's support and HSUS's support attached tells me that these people realized what the long term implications would be and worked in support of your efforts for their own goals.

The pet trade is not something that needs more governmental control... That's the sort of thing that Yuppicrats like to see and that's the sort of thing that leads to laws that can be honestly catagorized as "Idiotic." The Pet Industry needs to be self regulating, internally controlled by the individuals involved in it and with a vested interest in it's success. Contrary to the garbage that many of the activists in herpers clothing like to spread around, the majority of the Industry is good people, honest people with healthy animals and the actual numbers for losses are really pretty low, far lower proportionally than say... human deaths from unnatural causes.

So... I ask you once more...

In a year... or five years... or ten years... When the anti-human activists get their nasty grubby little fingers into this and use the precident that YOU helped set to start creating more... and more... and more of those isolated pockets where reptiles and other animals are banned totally from even being owned, starting first with cities, then counties, then states...

Will you apologize for your mistakes?

Will you apologize to every honest and decent herper with healthy animals who can no longer sell or even own their reptiles?

Just... one more thing...

The obvious response to my above comments is to state that they are a worst case scenario and the likelhood of those events occuring as stated is so minute as to be disregarded...

First... I believe as a personal matter that the danger is real and that it must be reccognized and combated for what it could potentially become.

Secondly... While it's unlikely that it would reach that point, the sole reason that it might be stopped is because there are good, knowledgeable and honest herpers out there who will fight against the proposed advances of anti-animal legislation tooth and nail the entire time... when it comes to the state and federal level anyway, many cities and counties are already finding themselves "Shafted." So at the very least, your (Marcia) actions have made more work for these poor people, created more battles and more fights and forced them to devote more of their time to arguing against bad laws.

Plus... I forgot to set it to e-mail me when this was replied to and the only way to fix that is to add another post. (Or set my preferences to email me when every thread I have participated in is added to... but that's a lot of emails)

Seamus, your point is well made, and well taken. Now, since virtually everyone who reads this string is fully aware of your position and opinion, is anyone interested in the FACTS that led to this? If not, I will not waste anyone's time (especially mine) with the laborious efforts to post them.

Marcia,

post the facts please.

However, no matter what the facts were with Petco's issues and your involvement in "rectifying" them, it doesn't change the fact that it sets a precident. We all know you are not an anti-reptile person, however, your efforts have been aligned to those people, and as an "industry insider," you've unknowingly plopped yourself on their side by trying to do something good for the animals.

Although I am not a fan or in support of the big chain pet sores, I have had luck in the past with informing some of the personnel about proper care of reptiles and seeing improvements. Of course this wasn't in EVERY store I went into, but hey, some is better than none.

And besides, if Petco, an industry GIANT, is not allowed to sell live animals in their CA retail stores, why should the little mom and pop store be allowed to?

And the care sheet law I must say is one of the STUPIDEST things I have ever seen. And the fact that Kraplin is a source for these care sheets is even worse(what kind of temperatures do anoles and salamanders like again? How big is a boa at 2 years old?).

Anyway, the bottom line is that thigns like this get that proverbial snowball rolling.

Very well, Rob. Please be patient, because there is so much correspondence and it will take me a little time to compile it chronologically so it is literal. Shall I post it in 'installments' or wait until it is all together?

PetNO Campaigning is gaining momentum here... there are now Boycott Petco signs at bus stops nearby the bigger stores.

(Glenn, if you're reading this- big boycott on the petco across from roosevelt field... westbound side of the street towards the end of the carle place shopping center. in direct sight for anyone about to go to the Petco on that next block)

OK, here is the first 'installment' of the facts that led to the closing of one of the PetCo stores in my area. Note in the correspondence that the responses from PetCorp clearly state at the bottom, "PETCO Animal Supplies, Inc." and NOT Petco Pet Store, Inc. Please try to withold your comments and conclusions until I get all the information posted....

I had been online with Trace from Gexfiles discussing Petco and 2 sick baby Leopard Geckos I had “rescued” from one of my local stores. She had been working on several legitimate and documented cases of cryptosporidia from Leopard Geckos that were purchased from various Petco stores in the USA, and wanted my input. She had been in contact with someone at ‘PetCorp’, and she provided me with the name and email of the supervisor she was dealing with. Needless to say, I was terrified and sent this self-explanatory letter:


Subj: To Kim Sherman, re: sick Leopard Geckos
Date: 3/8/01
To: customersatisfaction@petco.com


Dear Ms. Sherman,

As a reputable breeder of Leopard Geckos in California, I am compelled to write you in regard to my personal experiences with one of your Petco stores and their practices in keeping, feeding, and handling of the reptiles, Leopard Geckos specifically. I was referred to you by a Petco employee, and wish to state that the intent of this communication is non-confrontational, but rather to increase the awareness and level of education that I believe is necessary to provide the proper husbandry and health care for these creatures. I am in no way in competition with Petco for sales of Leopard Geckos, but the existing conditions are extremely urgent.

Approximately 6 months ago, I was in the *****, CA. store and visited the reptile tanks as I always do. What I saw was appalling, and sickened me to the point of tears. There was a small tank enclosure of approximately 12"x12" containing 8-12 juvenile Leopard Geckos that were so sick and emaciated that I was speechless with despair. One of them was dead and had a cricket eating its eye. The tank was full of feces, most of which was greenish, mucous-laden diarrhea. I immediately brought it to the attention of the store manager, who replied, "This is the way they come. What am I supposed to with them?"

I was outraged, and asked why the store had them on display for everyone to see in that condition. I asked if they had been seen or treated by a Veterinarian. The response I got was that Petco does not want the expense of Veterinary bills, and when the lizards die they just return them and get replacements. I asked where they get their Leopard Geckos, and she said she did not know. I asked her who I should talk to regarding this, and was told there was an ‘800’ number to call.

That experience actually traumatized me, and I cried when I got home. I called the Petco "800" number for customer service and spoke to ****, one of your representatives who said she would check into the situation, but I did not receive any response or follow-up.

I never returned to that store until last Friday, March 2, 2001. Again, I went to the reptile tanks and this is what I observed. There were two 12"X12" tank enclosures with about 20 Leopard Geckos. Both tanks had adults, juveniles, and hatchlings in them mixed together, and several of them were emaciated. The tanks were full of feces, the water bowls were slimy with dead crickets, and when I asked if someone would accompany me to the tanks, an employee named ***** opened the door in order to access the area behind the tanks. I brought to her attention the condition of the geckos & tanks and the fact that hatchlings should never be housed with adults.

She allowed me to sort the babies and adults into separate tanks, and to my shock and surprize, a good-sized Sand Skink came up out of the sand right in the midst of the hatchlings and began to feed on one of them. I almost fainted. When I asked ***** why the Skink was in that tank, and she advised me that taking care of the lizards wasn't her job. She then asked me if I intended to buy any of the geckos, and if so, to hurry up because she had to leave to pick up her daughter from school. Then I did what no responsible breeder should do, and bought two of the little babies out of concern and compassion. I took fecal samples to my Vet, but nothing could be accurately diagnosed.

By Tuesday, March 6, 2001, one of the babies died, never eating since I got it. I had been dropper-feeding them with baby food mixed with Ensure, Pedialite, and supplements. My Vet felt it could have been due to stress from being kept with so many others, including adults and a large Skink, and it appeared to have been sand-impacted from consuming the large grains of CalciSand in the tank when striking at crickets.

I returned the dead baby to that store yesterday, Wednesday, March 7 and ***** the store manager was there. I spoke to her at length, and she also said the reptiles come in sick and told me she would find out who their source was. She then immediately got the young fellow who is responsible for the reptiles and asked me to show them what was going on in the tanks and with the Leopard Geckos. I was all too thrilled to do so, and wound up spending about a half-hour educating them about the care, housing, and behavior of these little creatures. They were very receptive, and the young man asked for my business card in case he had any questions. I pointed out the sick lizards, and he promptly removed them into a separate container. I informed him that when the Sand Skink eats the babies in the tank and they were infected with something, the Skink most likely would become infected as well. I would like to point out however, that he did not wash or sanitize his hands after handling the sick ones, and said that the geckos had not been fed in several days because there was a problem with their shipment of crickets.

Not only as a breeder of these gentle, beautiful lizards, but a concerned lover of all animals, I find this practice of "husbandry" appalling, pitiful, inhumane, and utterly unacceptable. Something MUST be done to educate the employees, management and corporate decision-makers of Petco to provide the proper care these animals deserve, and discontinue buying sick and infected animals from the vendor sources themselves. It is a health risk of epidemic proportion, and completely unfair and cruel to the animals and their owners who love them.

I am willing to volunteer my time for training in your store(s) locally in the proper basic care and husbandry of these animals, and am looking forward to discussing this with the management of PetCo. I sincerely appreciate your indulgence and immediate action with this urgent matter.

Respectfully,
Marcia McGuiness
"The Lizard Lady"
LizardLady2001@aol.com
(925) 755-3113
__________________________________________________ _

The following day, Ms. Sherman from Petco called me and advised me that she had forwarded my letter to members of management who handle these problems, and I should be contacted within the next day or two. In the meantime, the second baby I’d “rescued” had died also. I spoke once again to Trace from Gexfiles, for information on another reptile breeder who was involved in an issue with Petco, and told me she would let this other breeder know, and have him contact me. Some time passed, and I sent this follow-up to Petco:

Subj: To Kim Sherman re: sick/dying Leopard Geckos
Date: 3/22/01
To: customersatisfaction@petco.com, trace@gexfiles.com


Dear Ms. Sherman,

I wrote you an email letter on 3/8/01 regarding my experience with the Petco store in *****, CA and the deplorable conditions in which the Leopard Geckos were kept, and would like to advise you of the fact that one of the two babies I "rescued" had died an agonizing death due to what is likely stress and/or sand impaction. I exchanged the dead baby for a replacement that seemed to be healthy and fairly well nourished.

You called me on 3/9/01 and advised me that you had forwarded my letter to the department that investigates this type of practice within the Petco stores, and they would be contacting me. I have yet to hear that this situation has been followed-up on. I cannot emphasize how critical this problem is enough.

In the meantime, I wanted to provide you with an update on the status of the two babies (1 original, 1 replacement) from the *****, CA store I have had in my care. I had a veterinarian do a fecal examination of both of them, and it tested positive for Coccidia, a very serious and highly contagious parasitic infection. If you provide me with a mailing address, I will be happy to send you a copy of the report. Neither of these little babies have eaten since I purchased them, and I have been meticulously hand-feeding them 2X a day from an eye-dropper for over two weeks. Their feces is still runny and smells of infection. The surviving baby I purchased first continues to regurgitate its food, is dehydrated, and has become seriously emaciated to the point of death, and I expect it will die within a few days. The replacement baby seems to be stabilizing, although it still refuses to eat. I have been treating both of them with medication, (Albon) and an appetite stimulant.

Ms. Sherman, something MUST be done about this! I would like to provide photographs of these babies to demonstrate the severity of their condition, although they are graphic and extremely disturbing. Perhaps this is what is necessary to cause Petco and its corporate decision-makers to realize just how these animals suffer by the ignorance and apathy that is practiced in the ***** store. As a reptile breeder and animal lover, it is heartbreaking for me to witness this result of what I consider to be criminal inhumanity to these beautiful, gentle little creatures. This does not even account for the emotional sadness and despair it creates for us who love and care for our geckos. Animals kept under these conditions in plain sight in a store that has hundreds of customers only reinforces the myths that reptiles are literally “NON-PETS” and do not deserve the care, treatment and conditions that other animals do.

Please advise me of the status of this case, and to whom I should send the photographs and pathology report as compelling evidence of the severity of this problem within this local Petco store.

Respectfully,

Marcia McGuiness
"The Lizard Lady"
lizardlady2001@aol.com
(925) 755-3113
__________________________________________________ __

A week went by with no response from Ms. Sherman, but I received the following forwarded email from Trace:

Subj: PetCo letter from Tom Morris
Date: 3/28/01 6:21:12 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: trace@gexfiles.com (Tracy Willis)
To: LizardLady2001@aol.com


Hey Marcia,

I wanted to forward you the letter that Tom Morris sent to PetCo yesterday. It is heartbreaking to say the least and I pray that he will get his justice for this. I began this passionate mission to stop the abuse and crypto infected leos because of him, but it was others who pressed it on.

Talk to you soon!
Trace
----------
From: "Thomas Morris" <vanyul@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 14:42:52 -0800
To: trace@eyesurf.com
Subject: Letter to Petco

Here is a copy of the letter that I sent to PetCo. I did put in a list at the bottom of the ones that died. I also fibbed a tiny bit as that I put Mr. Biggles and Stumblia on it because they will never be able to be put in with other geckos and from a business standpoint, essentially died. But the rest of the list are ones that I did lose. Let me know what you think....


In January of 2000, my girlfriend found some leopard geckos at a local PetCo Clackamas store, 82nd Ave, Portland, OR), that she thought I would like for my birthday. They were a little skinny but oterwise appeared normal. What she didn't know was that they had been infected with cryptoporidia from other leopard geckos housed with them. And so began my nightmare.

Soon all of my other leos began to get skinny as well. They all began to have diarreah. After the pair that we had got from PetCo had infected the rest of my breeders, they had died. Soon, one by one, my breeders seemed to starve to death. They were all eating but still starving to death. Towards the end, it was pretty horrible. They would begin to go into seizures. It was enough to make both me and my girlfriend ball like little babies everytime it happened (which was MANY). The PetCo store would only do a replacement of the geckos. They replaced the two I got from them with two more infected geckos!

Repeated trips to the vet produced nothing more than large vet bills. Fecal tests showed nothing. The vet said that the only way to diagnose the problem was through an expensive necropsy. By this time, I had started paying a lot of money to my vet to euthanize the animals when they got close to the end. but he said that uthanizing would foul a necropsy so I had to let one suffer to the end before a necropsy could be done! The unfortunate geckos name was Smootches. Watching her die was enough that I still cry everytime I think about it. Everyone of these animals was like family to us.

We took her body to Oregon State University in Corvallis, OR by car because the two hour drive was the only way to get her body there fast enough to perform the necropsy (my boss was very nice about the time off of work because he knew about what was going on). When the results were in, my vet asked me to come in and told me it was crypto. He explained what it was and that it had come from infected geckos. The only new geckos I had purchased within the last year and a half were the ones from PetCo. He said due to the gestation period etc, that it only takes weeks to show symptoms. This let me know where it had come from.

I immediately went back to the store. I spoke with the manager and she showed me a leo that they had had in the back for months. He was dying but had been fighting crypto for months. I let them know what he had and that he needed too be destroyed. They said OK, but when I returned to the store weeks later, he was back in the display case infecting newly arrived hatchling leos!!! I was sick. This means that MANY infected leos were sold through this store over the course of months. I finally just stopped going into PetCo altogether over it. Before this, I had spent over $3000.00 at that store in one year! This was like a slap in the face!

I then contacted David Chan who was the regional manager. I explained to him what had happened. He said that he would peplace or refund all of the adults that I had lost and pay for vet bills, necropsies, etc. and would look into changing suppliers. I told him at this point that I was still infected and that until the "death toll" was finalized, I would not feel right having him pay for geckos that were still alive. He said OK. I lost his number and the manager I was working with was moved to another store. I wasn't able to get back ahold of him to get this resolved.

Since then I have recieved emails from people ALL OVER THE U.S. who have gotten crypto infected leos from PetCo and had to try to explain to their children why their leo died such a horrible death. They go back to PetCo, only to have the animal replaced with another infected animal. If it were not for my work schedule, I would probably stand outside of your store with a sign over this whole incident. To big pet stores, these animals are nothing more than an inventory item. To us they are FAMILY! I am no tree hugging animal extremist by any means, but these animals are living creatures. And if you ever have to watch one of them die from this, let alone the sheer number of my animals I haved watched die from it, you would never again be the same!

All of the animals I lost were not inventory items but PETS whom I loved dearly. I am angry about this fact mainly. That my breeding business went belly up is not as big an issue, but before this, I would have produced about 250 babies in 2000. I produced 25. Just the monetary loss to me was INCREDIBLE. But this is nothing in comparison to the price I paid having to watch my little gecko family die.

I have enclosed a list of all of the geckos that I lost due to the two infected geckos that we bought from PetCo (I kept good records). All were healthy, established, breeding adults. Please read the list and remember that I had to watch each of them die horribly:

Smootches
Binky
Boo
Stumblina
Cuddles
Eve 6
Hope
Shorty
Precious
Twerp
Tabby
Antony
Cleopatra
Sheeba
Mr Biggles
Tank
Itchy
Scratchy
Zipper
Grumpy
Lacy
Monster Man
Peanut Butter
Jelly

Thank you for your time and concern,

Thomas W. Morris
Loving Home Reptiles,
Portland, OR.
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I had still not heard from Petco, and Trace forwarded me a copy of the correspondence she had sent and received from Kim Sherman at PetCorp.

Subj: Petco Geckos
Date: 4/6/01 1:46:01 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: KimSh@PETCO.com (Kim Sherman)
To: trace@gexfiles.com ('Tracy Willis'), KimSh@PETCO.com (Kim Sherman)
CC: ss_leos@hotmail.com (S & S Leopard Geckos), LizardLady2001@aol.com, vanyul@hotmail.com (Thomas Morris)



Tracy,

I'd like to reply to the quote you included from me. I said I would have the issues addressed. I do not address them personally. Our Companion Animal Coordinators (CAC) do that.

I have been in touch with Mr. Morris. He did not have a phone number where he could be reached. I gave him the phone number of the CAC. I received a voicemail today from the CAC saying that he has not heard from Mr. Morris. I replied, asking him to begin the conversation by sending Mr. Morris an email.

I left a message for the Regional Administrative Assistant in Marcia McGuiness' area yesterday, and have forwarded him her emails. I sent him an email today asking him to check on the status of her case.

In the Utah case (email address JcPsYKoSurie@aol.com <mailto:JcPsYKoSurie@aol.com> ), the CAC had the returned geckos tested for Cryptosporidium. The geckos did not have any Crypto, and they are in good health.
One of the other cases you sent was from early 2000, too old for investigation.

I have faithfully pursued every case you have sent to me. It takes time for such complex issues to be resolved. I ask for your patience.

Kim Sherman
PETCO Animal Supplies, Inc.

-----Original Message-----
From: Tracy Willis [mailto:trace@gexfiles.com]
Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 10:44 AM
To: Kim Sherman
Cc: S & S Leopard Geckos; LizardLady2001@aol.com; Thomas Morris
Subject: <no subject>



Hello Kim,

I must express my grand disappointment in the whole critical issues that we have TRIED to address to you.

You and your company seems to show "initial" concern, but frankly, words mean nothing, and you should know this. You SAY you are going to follow up, you SAY you are going to investigate and send people out, but people don't get replies, people continue to have broken hearts and this leaves a really bad taste in all of our mouths. And, worst of all, deplorable conditions continue, leopard geckos and other reptiles die by the dozen. You have not replied even to Seth and Sandi and you told me two days ago you were contact them right away (quote from your email):

"Thank you, Tracy. I am having Mr. Stevens' issues addressed immediately."

How can your company continue without a conscience? These lives are in your hands! Most have a normal life span longer than dogs and cats and they do not even live to 6 months of age!!! What about Mr. Morris and his devastating loss (financial and emotional)? Do you even know how something like that feels?

We are not giving up on this, Kim. We are going to take more action and you will know what we are up to. We have proof, we also have more and more people contacting us every single day, more and more stores are being reported. I will go directly to the supplier with the CLEAN leopard geckos and tell them what is going on as well.

Tracy Willis

PS: This letter has been also posted on kingsnake.
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Cc: S & S Leopard Geckos <ss_leos@hotmail.com>, LizardLady2001@aol.com,
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__________________________________________________ __

Finally, after a few weeks I was contacted by Darren Bedel, Regional Companion Animal Coordinator for Petco. He seemed extremely concerned over this issue, and assured me it would be looked in to and dealt with accordingly. He had copies of both of my letters to Ms. Sherman, and when I asked him who the supplier of their Leopard Geckos was, he advised me that it was Bill Brandt from Gourmet Rodent. We discussed the possibility of me going in to the store for training of the employees, and he thought that was a wonderful idea and said he would contact the district manager to coordinate it with me. I wrote this letter to Ms. Sherman:

Subj: Update
Date: 4/12/01
To: kimsh@petco.com


Dear Kim,

Thank you for your help and support. I finally got a call from Darren Bedel from the Northern California/Nevada region, and we'll see what happens... in the meantime, take a look at this:

http://herpwantads.com/forums/Inquiry/posts/2247.html

It will give you just a tiny example of how folks perceive Petco.

Sincerely,
Marcia McGuiness
"The Lizard Lady"
LizardLady2001@aol.com

__________________________________________________ __

On 4/13/01 I received a voice mail message from Kim Sherman at Petco stating that she had just spoken to Darren Bedel, and was happy that we had gotten the ‘ball rolling’ to improve the conditions at the store. I sent her this email correspondence:

Subj: Re: Update
Date: 4/13/01
To: KimSh@PETCO.com
CC: trace@gexfiles.com


Kim,

Thank you for your response.... I am somewhat relieved to know that there ARE those of you at Petco who truly seem to care about what's happening in your stores. I am very serious about getting this horrible situation remedied at the **** store, and I can't think of a time when I was so committed to help make a difference in the way these animals are cared for.

In contrast, I visited the store in ****, CA the other day and the reptile tanks were very clean and well maintained. The animals seemed healthy, and were all appropriately separated by species and size. The young fellow who tends the reptiles and their habitats was fairly knowledgeable and took sincere pride in his job. There were care sheets printed and in plain view for most of the reptiles that were available. This was a tremendous contrast to what I observed in the **** store, and I feel that they are an example of what any retail establishment that sells reptiles should be.


Thanks again,
Marcia McGuiness
"The Lizard Lady"
__________________________________________________ __

Subj: RE: Update
Date: 4/13/01 8:38:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: KimSh@PETCO.com (Kim Sherman)
To: LizardLady2001@aol.com ('LizardLady2001@aol.com')



Marcia,

Thank you for the update. I'm glad you and Darren are in touch. I will check out the link, and share it with our reptile buyers and companion animal care decision makers.

Kim
PETCO Animal Supplies, Inc. __________________________________________________ __

On Easter Sunday, April 15, 2001 I received a phone call from Angela Giordano, the District Manager for the local Petco stores. She had been contacted by Darren Bedel to arrange for me to do training seminar(s) in their stores. We had a very lengthy discussion in regard to my personal experiences with the **** store, and she had copies of all the correspondence between Ms. Sherman and myself. We set the date of Wednesday, April 25 for the training.

During that time, I was very active in the Leopard Geckos Forum on Kingsnake as well as the BOI. I had posted a few times regarding Petco, and the responses I received from across the country were overwhelming. It appeared that what I had experienced in my local store was occurring in stores all over the USA. I had posted that I would be doing training locally, and was very clear that in order for Petco to remedy these issues, we needed to be very pragmatic and and provide FACTS to Kim Sherman. Here is an example of the email responses I sent to these various people:

Subj: Re: Petstore
Date: 4/22/01
To: kbroy@conknet.com


K***,

Wow! I'm really impressed with your commitment to helping improve the conditions at the "chain-stores." I am not a "banner-waving, horn-tooting" activist on anything in my life until I was actually traumatized when I experienced the inhumane and deplorable situation at Petco.

Getting this resolved will be a long and complicated procedure, and it requires alot of diplomacy and patience... letter writing is the first step. It is critically important to be factual and credible when dealing with "corporate" mentality. (I should know, because I've been a corporate manager!) When you contact Ms. Sherman, the necessary information must include: dates, locations, names of persons dealt with, exactly what you saw or experienced, what the outcome was, and how it affected you. Factual details are the only thing that will get attention, and by offering to help rather than just complaining and/or threatening will get results.

I am very excited about the upcoming training, and hope that it will help set precedence as a small step in improving a very important problem in Petco stores.

Best Regards,
Marcia McGuiness
"The Lizard Lady"

__________________________________________________ _______________________________________

TO BE CONTINUED......

PART 2

On April 15, 2001, I arrived at the ****, CA store equipped with a couple of my adult geckos, care sheets, hand-outs, and business cards. I was greeted by Darren Bedel, Petco’s Companion Animal Coordinator for Northern California and Nevada District; Angela Giordano, the Regional Manager for the SF Bay area stores; managers and employees from 4 of the Bay Area stores. The reptile enclosures were immaculate! Each and every tank was spotless, with clean substrates and fresh water. Fresh food items were available appropriately for the type of reptile, and although their inventory/stock of animals was lower than I had seen in my previous visits, they all appeared to be healthy and alert. I was ecstatic!

The training lasted for nearly 2 hours, and was very interactive with great questions and comments. I covered issues regarding proper housing, heating, lighting, feeding, and quarantine. We went over certain herp behavior and the importance of keeping different species in their own environment. We covered how diseases and infections are transmitted by oral/fecal contact, and how epidemics can be spread. I showed them books on the care of specific reptiles that they had on their own store shelves as a reference. I handed out my business cards, and left it open for any of them to call me or email me anytime with any questions.

When the employees who were on work time left to return to their respective stores, several of the other attendees stuck around and gave me some very positive feed-back, and expressed their concerns about their lack of training from Petco. Upon hearing that, one of the managers interrupted and took over the conversation by stating that “it is Petco’s policy that ALL employees who deal directly with animals attend very thorough training on each of the species they sell,” and quickly changed the subject.

I will post in detail what subsequently happened by means of copies of the email correspondences in order to save time and space, but I will say that it affected me enough to post a small comment in Kingsnake’s Leopard Gecko Forum the next day: http://www.kingsnake.com/forum/lgeck...ges/51577.html (which since has been archived.) Basically, the forum users wanted to know how the training went, and I stated that I felt the training went very well, but what happened afterwards was deeply disturbing. I did not post the details, but left it open for anyone interested to contact me via email. Needless to say, I was overwhelmed with inquiries. Here is the “canned” response I sent to those people, which describes what happened immediately after the training.


From: LizardLady2001@aol.com
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 19:47:10 EDT
To: (undisclosed recipients)
Subject: The Petco Aftermath

To all my Forum friends,

Somehow I knew I'd come home to my e-mail messages and there would be smoke coming out of it! Please forgive the "mass-response"... Although the training went extremely well considering it was a debut, as I was loading my car after the training one of the employees from the store approached me very gingerly and asked me if I had just a little more time because she wanted to talk to me in private. She was holding something very secretly.

She led me to the side of the building, and showed me an adult fat-tail in such a state that I have never witnessed in my life. This gecko was emaciated beyond anything I had ever seen... tail like a pencil lead, pelvis protruding so grotesquely it could not walk, and it's spine and rib-cage was just about all you could make out of it's torso. He was barely alive, and it made me weak in the knees. When, she showed me the right side of its head, I actually had a wave of nausea come over me and I began to shake inside.

This poor creature had an abscess the size of an olive inside its mouth, and hanging out so it couldn't close its jaws. It was hideous... crusty and foul smelling, and it caused it's face to contort beyond recognition and its eye was protruding. It was all I could do to keep from going "postal." Then, the employee started to cry and said, "Marcia, you've GOT to help me! I don’t know what I should do!” she sobbed. “The back room is full of geckos that look like this, and the freezer has a bunch of dead ones in it.” I choked on my own tears as her story went on.

Apparently, Angela the District Manager had given strict orders to remove and hide all animals that were sick and or dying from me AND the Regional Animal Companion Coordinator. This was one of several other animals that were in dire need of veterinary treatment, but the store manager had refused when the employee asked to take them to the vet. She only worked part-time and could not afford to take the little Fat Tail in for treatment herself.

She had been sneaking this little morbidly ill creature home with her every night, and wiping it's mouth out with a Q-tip and peroxide. She had been syringe feeding it and wrapping it in a warm washcloth hoping the puss would drain out of it's mouth. She actually slept in the recliner holding it every night for nearly 2 weeks. This employee had also been coming back into the store late after hours on her own time to clean the reptile tanks and care for the animals, until she was caught and written-up for it.

She was sobbing uncontrollably as she was telling the whole story. "I don't know what to do, they’re going to fire me and I need my job! I just can't let this continue! I love these animals, and I don't know how to help them! I know you came here for this purpose, please help!"

I remembered I had a camera in my car, and immediately got it and took photos of this little gecko that was suffering so badly. All I could do was put my arms around the employee and give her my commitment and pledge that I will help, and what was going on was against the law. I assured her that if she was fired for talking to me, I would fight a court battle right along side with her.

When Angela saw us hugging, she came out to see what was going on. The employee tried to hide the lizard from her, but I took her wrist and showed the manager this pitiful little example of how Petco treats their animals. I looked her in the eye and said, "Do you realize that you are in violation of the California Penal Code on Animal Abuse? This gecko needs to see a Vet NOW, or I will have no problem whatsoever calling the police department." Needless to say, she drove the employee and the gecko to the Vet herself on the spot. I left, and cried all the way home.

A few hours later, the employee called me and said that the vet had lanced and drained the abscess, gave it a shot of antibiotics and a prescription, and told the employee that the little fellow would probably die. I gave her
advise on everything I know to do to help it recover, and made myself available for her at any time.

I haven't decided what to do about this yet. I am still obsessively replaying the whole scenario in my mind, and I wind up so angry and anxious that I would not be effective dealing with PetCorp. I have had 2 calls from the
District Manager and have yet to return them. I am sick at heart over this, and it just confirms what I already suspected about Petco. Am I setting myself up for trouble? Can I truly make a difference? I am not sure how to
proceed.

Sincerely,
Marcia McGuiness
The Lizard Lady

__________________________________________________ ___________________________________

Kim Sherman from Petco and Trace from Gexfiles were among those who received the above email.

I received a phone call from the Petco employee within this timeframe, and was told that the poor little Fat-tail Geckos had died. She advised me that she was told by 'management' that she was not to talk to me or discuss the incident with anyone.

Over the next few days, I was flooded with accounts from people all over the country who had similar experiences with Petco stores. I forwarded all of this information to Trace at Gexfiles who had factual, documented and pictorial evidence from a multitude of people who had suffered along with their herps as a result of Petco’s practices. I gave Kim Sherman’s email address to literally everyone who wanted to know who to contact at Petco. Then I received this email:

Subj: Unfortunate
Date: 4/30/01 3:24:47 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: craigp@PETCO.com (Craig Parsons)
To: LizardLady2001@aol.com ('Lizard Lady')
CC: DarrenB@PETCO.com (Darren Beadle)
File: Unknown (4185 bytes) DL Time (28800 bps): < 1 minute


It's unfortunate that you felt the need to post any negative comment at all on the Leopard Gecko forum. The Regional Companion Animal Coordinator (Darren Beadle) virtually gave you the opportunity to educate and improve husbandry at store level. Instead of leaving it as a positive, you had to give a negative opinion which leaves everyone wondering what you saw. To further build on the relationship you and Darren Beadle had created, I would have addressed it with him and he would have immediately resolved whatever husbandry issue you discovered. As it stands right now, Darren and the District Manager feel like you stabbed them in the back which leaves you with very little creditability in their eyes.

You had the opportunity to truly make a difference in a few of our stores, I can only hope that others that give the impression to help further train our associates are sincere. PETCO welcomes the opportunity to partner with Herp Societies and or private individuals to improve husbandry at store level. Most people unfortunately cannot raise above simply posting a negative comment and do something constructive to resolve whatever issue it is they discover at a store. I commend you for the effort and coordination with our regional people, it's unfortunate you felt the need to give up that relationship by posting a negative comment.

There are many people who view PETCO as a positive influence on the Reptile Industry by our actions. Our past financial support of the ARAV (Association of Reptile & Amphibian Veterinarians) who study reptile diseases and our participation in the Tallahassee Florida Exotic Tick and Reptile Symposium that was put on by the United States Department of Agriculture. Not to mention the tens of thousands of dollars we donate to rescue and humane societies all over the country. Many of our supporters use Kingsnake.com and send us all the postings positive or otherwise. We will continue to sell reptiles in our stores and I welcome those who are interested in partnering with us to improve current husbandry practices in PETCO stores.

Sincerely,
Craig Parsons
PETCO, Companion Animal & Fish Buyer


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Subject: Unfortunate
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I responded:


Subj: Re: It really IS Unfortunate...
Date: 4/30/01
To: craigp@PETCO.com, kimsh@petco.com, trace@gexfiles.com



Dear Mr. Parsons,

I appreciate your e-mail, and agree with you that this situation is "unfortunate." The message I posted on the on the Leopard Gecko Forum made no mention of the facts that I am about to present to you. For your records, the link to the post is: http://www.kingsnake.com/forum/lgeck...es/51577.html. There was absolutely nothing negative posted other than the fact that I was deeply disturbed by what happened after the training. I did however, send a lengthy and detailed letter of account to a colleague of mine, Tracy Willis, who is a member/contributor to the STOP PET STORE ABUSE Council.

I regret that Darren and Angela feel like I have "stabbed them in the back." I do wish to inform you however, that Angela actually witnessed what occurred after the training class, and Darren had already left. I would have hoped that Angela would have informed him of the incident, and left that up to them to do their jobs without interference. Perhaps she didn't, or they are keeping this on a low-profile status.

I was loading my car after the training one of the employees from the store approached me very gingerly and asked me if I had just a little more time because she wanted to talk to me in private. She was holding something very secretly.

She led me to the side of the building, and showed me an adult fat-tail in such a state that I have never witnessed in my life. This gecko was emaciated beyond anything I had ever seen... tail like a pencil lead, pelvis protruding so grotesquely it could not walk, and it's spine and rib-cage was just about all you could make out of it's torso. He was barely alive, and it made me weak in the knees. When, she showed me the right side of its head, I actually had a wave of nausea come over me and I began to shake inside.

This poor creature had an abscess the size of an olive inside its mouth, and hanging out so it couldn't close its jaws. It was hideous... crusty and foul smelling, and it caused it's face to contort beyond recognition and its eye
was protruding. It was all I could do to keep from going "postal." Then, the employee started to cry and said, "Marcia, you've GOT to help me! I don’t know what I should do!” she sobbed. “The back room is full of geckos that look like this, and the freezer has a bunch of dead ones in it.” I choked on my own tears as her story went on.

Apparently, Angela the District Manager had given strict orders to remove and hide all animals that were sick and or dying from me AND the Regional Animal Companion Coordinator. This was one of several other animals that were in dire need of veterinary treatment, but the store manager had refused when the employee asked to take them to the vet. She only worked part-time and could not afford to take the little Fat Tail in for treatment herself, so she had been sneaking this little morbidly ill creature home with her every night, and wiping it's mouth out with a Q-tip and peroxide. She had been syringe feeding it and wrapping it in a warm washcloth hoping the puss would drain out of it's mouth. She actually slept in the recliner holding it every night for nearly 2 weeks. This employee had also been coming back into the store late after hours on her own time to clean the reptile tanks and care for the animals, until she was caught and written-up for it.

She was sobbing uncontrollably as she was telling the whole story. "I don't know what to do, they’re going to fire me and I need my job! I just can't let this continue! I love these animals, and I don't know how to help them! I know you came here for this purpose, please help!"

I remembered I had a camera in my car, and immediately got it and took photos of this little gecko that was suffering so badly. All I could do was put my arms around the employee and give her my commitment and pledge that I will help, and what was going on was against the law. I assured her that if she was fired for talking to me, I would fight a court battle right along side with her.

When Angela saw us hugging, she came out to see what was going on. The employee tried to hide the lizard from her, but I took her wrist and showed the manager this pitiful little example of how Petco treats their animals. I looked her in the eye and said, "Do you realize that you are in violation of the California Penal Code on Animal Abuse? This gecko needs to see a Vet NOW, or I will have no problem whatsoever calling the police department." Needless to say, she drove the employee and the gecko to the Vet herself on the spot. I left, and cried all the way home.

A few hours later, the employee called me and said that the vet had lanced and drained the abscess, gave it a shot of antibiotics and a prescription, and told the employee that the little fellow would probably die. I gave her advise on everything I know to do to help it recover, and made myself available for her at any time.

I have spoken to that employee since then, and the little gecko died. She has been keeping its body in the refrigerator because she wants to show Darren herself. She now has another sick Leopard Gecko from that store she is caring for. I realize I am only hearing one side of the story in this particular case, but what I have witnessed and have photographic evidence of is pretty clear.

Not only has Petco violated their own policies in caring for companion animals and providing adequate training for animal care employees, but have also violated the California Penal Code Animal Welfare Provisions. In case you need a refresher, they are as follows:

§597l. Pet shops.

(a) It shall be unlawful for any person who operates a pet shop to fail to do all of the following:
(1) Maintain the facilities used for the keeping of pet animals in a sanitary condition.
(2) Provide proper heating and ventilation of the facilities used for the keeping of pet animals.
(3) Provide adequate nutrition for, and humane care and treatment of, all pet animals under his care and control.
(4) Take reasonable care to release for sale, trade or adoption only those pet animals which are free of diseases or injuries.
(5) Provide adequate space appropriate to the size, weight and specie of pet animal.
(b) As used in this section:
(1) "Pet animals" means dogs, cats, monkeys, and other primates, rabbits, birds, guinea pigs, hamsters, mice, snakes, iguanas, turtles and any other species of animal sold or retained for the purpose of being kept as a household pet.
(2) "Pet shop" means every place or premises where pet animals are being kept for the purpose of either wholesale or retail sale. "Pet shop" does not include any place or premises where pet animals are occasionally sold.
(c) Any person who violates any provision of this section is guilty of a misdemeanor and is punishable by a fine of not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than 90 days, or by both such fine and imprisonment.


Mr. Parsons, I have actual documented, factual written accounts and photographs from people ALL OVER THE COUNTRY, including myself, who have had similar experiences with Petco. I also have copies of all the prior litigations against Petco for the same thing... blatant abuse, mistreatment, and deplorable, inhumane conditions in which your so-called "companion animals" are kept! Apparently, this is nothing new for you.

May I suggest that you get to the bottom of this, and seek the TRUTH on this desperate situation. Take a look at the numbers, Mr. Parsons... just how many animals are returned either dead or sick and dying? Talk to (the employee) directly at the ****, CA store. Do some homework and get the FACTS instead of jumping to conclusions. I AM NOT THE BAD GUY! Your managers are! I tried to offer my help and training by volunteering my own time to raise the consciousness and teach the employees the proper husbandry of Leopard Geckos.

Who has been "stabbed in the back?"


Marcia McGuiness
"The Lizard Lady"
__________________________________________________ ____________________

The following day I received this response from Mr. Parsons:

Subj: RE: It really IS Unfortunate...
Date: 5/1/01 11:26:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: craigp@PETCO.com (Craig Parsons)
To: LizardLady2001@aol.com ('LizardLady2001@aol.com')
CC: trace@gexfiles.com ('Tracy Willis'), KimSh@PETCO.com (Kim Sherman)


Thanks for the heads up, I will forward this to the Regional Manager Phil Paradis who will investigate and take action against these individuals after the investigation is completed. Just an FYI, the chain of command is referenced below, if anyone finds inappropriate husbandry at one of our stores they should keep going until they resolve whatever issue it is they find. Provided it isn't a difference in the opinion of husbandry regarding the use of a particular substrate or food for example. We get direction from our wholesale suppliers and breeders when it comes to developing policy and procedure for the care and maintenance of reptiles. There are specific written guidelines for all stores to follow regarding husbandry. In addition, all stores have the ability to take animals to a vet immediately with the approval of their RCAC or DM. There is no reason for any animal to suffer while in the care of PETCO.

1) First they should contact the Store Manager
2) If they don't resolve whatever poor husbandry issue, take it to the RCAC ( Regional Companion Animal Coordinator )
3) If they don't resolve it, take it to the District Manager
4) And finally, if all else fails, demand to speak with the Regional Manager to resolve whatever husbandry issue.

The management contact information can be received from the store in question or customer relations here at the National Support Center. Regardless of the situation, individuals should follow this line of management to stop any potential animal suffering at store level. Posting negative information on whatever web site seems pointless and non-productive to me, when taking the action mentioned above will clearly get results immediately. Correct me if I'm wrong, but posting a negative comment has never stopped poor husbandry or potential suffering at any chain pet store operation. If there is an individual employed by PETCO who is unwilling to properly maintain Small Animals, Birds or Reptiles they will be terminated.


Sincerely,
Craig Parsons
PETCO, Companion Animal & Fish Buyer



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