Has this ever happened to you,,?

Are you illiterate Marcia?

mouth shut after the fact and given a reasonable period of time for changes to be made

the problem would have been corrected to a large degree.

YOU blew your chances of correcting it.

YOU had a chance to make things better and you decided to continue to make negative comments.

NO company would be inclined to even so much as allow someone into their store if they got badmouthed like that in public.

You may be the antithesis of what's good for the industry and good for the animals but you're not THAT stupid to have not been able to see the consequences of your actions, think about it... You say you want to help, they let you help, everything goes pretty well. Of course they hide the problems but remember, you haven't told them how to fix them when they do so... They let you into their store, let you speak to their employees, let the employees speak back and express the problems and you go and make it all public and put it in the most negative light possible.

When you work in this sort of situation, you need to keep in mind that they are interested primarily in making money. All businesses are. They are willing to welcome your help but by turning around and making what should have been confidential information public, you violated a trust and caused more problems than provided solutions.

Incidentally, I know six letters is a whole lot... but even you can get my name right... And of course, it was just a typo... each and every time, because you wouldn't be that ignorant, petty and juvenile, would you?

No, I'm not illiterate, Seamus. It should read exactly the way you originally wrote it:

Had she just kept her mouth shut after the fact..

she probably would have been allowed to continue to educate the associates and the problem would have been corrected to a large degree.

Once again you have done nothing but state your opinion of me and my actions. You still have not answered the question!


WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE?

NO company would be inclined to even so much as allow someone into their store if they got badmouthed like that in public.

True... but it's not a problem because I would not even want to go in to their store again anyway. Ever.


WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE?

YOU blew your chances of correcting it.

I don't think I blew anything... I just came to the realization that I could never even come close to correcting their problem. It is gonna take a bigger and badder authority to make them correct their problem, and perhaps that authority has already stepped in.

WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE?

The Petco stores in the SF area that were cited are criminals. They have comitted a crime. They have broken the law by deliberately and knowingly refusing the proper care necessary for the health and well-being of the animals in their store, and knowingly selling them when they are sick and infected with disease and/or parasites. They broke the law by wrongfully terminating employees for refusing to break the law. When criminals break the law and get caught, they must be accountable for their actions. Plain and simple.

WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE?

Have you or anyone else reading this thread ever seen the 'Animal Precinct' program on Animal Planet? You know, the one where some idiot has their poor dog chained up in the back yard, so emaciated and dehydrated it can barely raise its head and is so tick infested is is low on blood? The program where a concerned neighbor calls the authorities to come an investigate? Then after the investigation they take the pitiful dog to get treatment and arrest the owner for violating the law?

Who is responsible, Seamus? Is it the arresting officer? Is it the Vet that saved the dog's life? Is it the concerned neighbor? Is it the film crew or the network that airs the program? According to your misguided way of thinking, it most certainly is NOT the dog's owner that is responsible for his actions! Noooooo! It is the fault of the 'evil' concerned neighbor or the 'bully' police officers. According to you, the whole problem lies with the stupid law that protects the dog in the first place!

Well, I didn't write the law, nor did I arrest anybody. I certainly didn't break any laws! I was just a concerned neighbor trying to make something right. The only thing I am guilty of is having the false sense of notion I could make a difference.

WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE?

Marcia, I commend you for what you have tried to do regarding PetCO's criminal actions. I also breed and raise leopard geckos and BTW Seamus, a few of mine have names also! Man, Seamus, have you forgotten that these are living, breathing creatures we are talking about? They are not shiny jewelry or bright, trendy clothes or cute stuffed toys they are alive! Dude, please take a step back from your self righteous tirade and THINK. Are you really so cold and unfeeling towards these geckos as you appear? What if you were in the same pet store and saw ematiated puppies living in their own runny crap and puke and basically dying a slow and agonizing death? Would your reaction be the same? Marcia did what she felt she needed to do in order to stop this abuse and I respect her greatly for that. I understand you don't agree with her methods but surely you agree with her reasoning behind the methods?

WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE?

It's been said several times but apparantly you are unable to pick up on it, despite the fact that it's pretty obvious.

I would have continued the educational aspect and not badmouthed the company before they had a chance to correct it.

There... said so even you can read and understand.

The Petco stores in the SF area that were cited are criminals. They have comitted a crime.

Then why is it a civil case?

Why didn't animal control officers simply sieze these animals?

You said they were called many times, if it were bad enough to warrant criminal charges, it never would have ended up being a civil matter.

Seamus, have you forgotten that these are living, breathing creatures we are talking about?

No Kelli, I have not forgotten they are living, breathing creatures.

I also have not forgotten that a list of a few dozen of them represents a miniscule fraction of a percent of the total population that's in captivity in the United States. Or that the private sector has consistently outbred the zoos for the last two decades. Or that education and understanding and the willingness to support appropriate conservation often arises from a firsthand interaction with an animal rather than a television program.

The fact remains that what Marcia did has a very minimal positive impact and an enormous negative one.

Yes, it was bad that the animals were in conditions that were unhealthy.

Yes, it's bad when animals get sick and die.

Yes, it is also a reality that low cost animals don't stand the same chance of seeing a vet as high cost animals. An unfortunate reality but a reality.

No, none of that makes it appropriate to damage the entire industry and ALL the animals contained within it's scope.

It's really a situation where the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. While I certainly reccognize the fact that leopard geckos are living creatures... They are also animals, they are not humans and should not be assigned the same intrinsic value.

Further... if this action is even successful against the company... All it will do is increase sales for all the stores just over the city limits, forcing them to double up the number of animals they keep in stock, resulting in more health problems.

Petco is not going to be put out of buisness. Petco is not going to signifigantly change their corporate policies, which are technically already in place and simply aren't followed much of the time.

The little guy who produces and sells quality animals with decent information will go under with some of these idiotic laws because he doesn't have those dogfood based profits to cover his losses.

The only thing herp laws do... is hurt herpers and herps.

Heck, it's a situation I know well myself. Ever seem Massachusetts' herp laws? What can be kept, what can't be kept, what requires a permit? It's no coincidence that Massachusetts has the densest human population in New England but all the more reccognizeable reptile dealers and breeders are in New Hampshire and Vermont.

The only possible outcomes from this will be negative. It won't impact Petco in any signifigant way but it will harm everyone else.

Are you really so cold and unfeeling towards these geckos as you appear?

Those few dozen out of the tens of thousands Petco sells and the thousands they have sold even in that area since that could have been helped but won't be because of the foolish actions Marcia supported and encouraged?

Yes, I suppose in some ways I am. When it comes to fifty leopard geckos versus twenty thousand leopard geckos and every other reptile I own... Yeah, I think I assign a lesser importance to the smaller number of animals.

I understand you don't agree with her methods but surely you agree with her reasoning behind the methods?

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

So is the road to PETA's ideal America.

If we're just going to type the same questions back and forth, there's one you have yet to answer Marcia.

When there are bills being considered that would ban the private ownership of reptiles, will you apologize and admit your mistakes?

When there are good people who lose their businesses, will you apologize and admit you did something wrong?

When people's pets are confiscated and euthanized after becoming illegal to own, will you apologize?

And when (if) you do apologize...

Do you think it will help fix what you did?

When there are bills being considered that would ban the private ownership of reptiles, will you apologize and admit your mistakes? When there are good people who lose their businesses, will you apologize and admit you did something wrong? When people's pets are confiscated and euthanized after becoming illegal to own, will you apologize?

Since the likelihood of all of this happening is highly unlikely, the answer to your questions is:

NO.

Seamus-

I respect your views and opinions. But you did not answer the question:

What if you were in the same pet store and saw ematiated puppies living in their own runny crap and puke and basically dying a slow and agonizing death?

Also, what does this:

Or that the private sector has consistently outbred the zoos for the last two decades.

have to do with this topic? Maybe I am missing something so please explain :-) I can be a little slow at times so you won't be hurting my feelings if you do!

When it comes to fifty leopard geckos versus twenty thousand leopard geckos and every other reptile I own... Yeah, I think I assign a lesser importance to the smaller number of animals.

Seamus, since you seem to like hypothetical scenarios and statitisical figures, I have a "story problem" for you. (Although I'm sure you will side-step this question, too.)

Let's say fifty Leopard Geckos that are infected with Cryptopsoridia come in contact with fifty other reptiles (each) in pet stores, and infect them. Then, those infected reptiles are purchased and brought home by individuals who have an average of eight other herps in their home that subsequently become infected. How many cryptosporidia infected reptiles are there now? Do the math....

Need some help? answer: (50X50)X8=20,000

So I guess you are right! Fifty sick leopard geckos (the smaller number) should be assigned a lesser importance than than twenty thousand leopard geckos!

What if you were in the same pet store and saw ematiated puppies living in their own runny crap and puke and basically dying a slow and agonizing death?

If there were animals in those conditions, they would have been confiscated by animal control.

Animal control did not confiscate the animals so the animals were not in those conditions.

As such, no parallel can be drawn... However, in that situation, I would call animal control, animal control would confiscate the dogs.

Or that the private sector has consistently outbred the zoos for the last two decades

It has an impact on this subject.

When laws are put in place that restrict private ownership, the accomplishments of the private sector will be impeded.

Since the likelihood of all of this happening is highly unlikely, the answer to your questions is:

NO.

Unlikely?

Pet store owners and employees in California and other areas are already having problems. Proposals have already cropped up in other communities across the country.

So I guess you are right! Fifty sick leopard geckos (the smaller number) should be assigned a lesser importance than than twenty thousand leopard geckos!

Marcia, since you had an oppurtunity to correct the problem and screwed it up by being more trouble than you were worth, you're really in no position to claim any sort of position where your actions were motivated by any altruistic nonsense.

You support anti-pet legislation.

You promulgate anti-pet propaganda.

You are trying to damage herps, not help them.

If there were animals in those conditions, they would have been confiscated by animal control. Animal control did not confiscate the animals so the animals were not in those conditions.

How do you know they didn't? Seamus, you are insunuating I am a liar AGAIN!