One Who has No Beliefs and Why.......

Amen Glenn ...


To say that this God exsists is to me kinda like saying hell will freeze over .I dont have a religious bone in my body i dont knock those who do but to each their own.I find it hard to beleive what people say about the bible when they say " the fighting in the holy land" means the world is ending ... well how many years has it been ending ?i beleive more in nostradumbass then in the words of the bible , i hear my parents pray for the soldiers overseas and to give the leaders to make the "right descision" to end the war .. the right decision would be to gather the women and children and make the sanb box a glass house.... nuke the SOB's ... if god were all so mighty would he not spare all life ? would he not keep all his people safe when they prey ?

well im not sure why i aided to this thread but i have to agree the religion is a tool to manipulate others into what one group beleives in and to adhere to the standards they claim their god wants them to ..
arghhh what a crock
never have i seen a miricale that was cast down from the heavans to me or around me things in this world all happen for a reason IMHO... its cause & effect nothing more in my opinion .. like shooting a gun you pull the trigger a bullet comes out (99% of the time ) you drive drunk you wreck , make it home or get a DUI one fo the three will happen you get cancer .. you either are cured by treatment , die or it wasnt cancer .. all this is my opinion and nothing more .. well i have rambled enough sorry

Well you both make excellent points but your logic is flawed (to me at least). Saying that you're killing in the name of God does not make it so. If that's the case then how about if I said God told me I have to rid the world of Glenn and Junglehabitats because they aren't believers. Does that make my argument true? NO because the Bible, the Koran etc teach kindness and respect for your fellow man. God says that we must obey his commandments but He also states that we must also obey Man's law. Therefore if you murder someone and blame it on God you will be punished by Him.

God doesn't need religious fanatics to do his bidding. He didn't show up in some tiny village in Saudi Arabia to find someone to kill 3000 civilians, Muslims, Christians, Jews etc. Those extremists do not speak for God. They preach hate and intolerance but the Bible and the Koran teach tolerance and acceptance, kindness toward your fellow man. See what I mean? I am fairly sure that ifGod wanted to take out all of those people He could have found a way, I'm pretty darn sure He wasn't sitting in the co-pilot seat cheering them on. Religion is often used to justify people's behavior, however they are only using the parts of the Bible, etc. that suit them and they ignore the rest. If people weren't killing in the name of God they would find another reason to rape and murder, maybe they would kill in the name of "JOE". Either way they will find an excuse to spread their brand of hate. You can't hold God responsible for their fanaticism, those aren't His teachings. He will exact his brand of vengenance when the time comes.

Again this is simply my opinion, I appreciate that others feel differently, you see that's the whole point. Acceptance for others and treating others how you would want to be treated is what God teaches.


I enjoy the debate, I look forward to hearing what others have to say.


Chris Marston

Religion does take away from your existence if you believe in intellectual integrity. To base a belief on the 'comfort' you derive from it is to be self decieved.

On another level, I think it is dishonest for people to make faith a virtue. This leads to the potential belief in propositions that have no warrent. Xns, muslims and Jews also have a strong tendency to confuse faith based beliefs with proven propositions or revealed truths. This is where evil enters; from faith to fact to hostility for those who reject the truth.

Personally, I could care less whether god exists or not, but faith per se is irrelavant. And even if god did exist I would'nt be interested in him/her anymore than I am interested in boring films.
If god does exist this fact would be no different than how many moons Jupiter has.

Chris,

I am pretty sure you missed my point, why not read mine again. You spoke of faith and I addressed that issue not the issue of what a G9g)od wants if there is such an entity. Faith is made up of human beliefs. Humans definitely do believe that G(g)od is telling them to kill others in the name of their faith. All this good you speak of in the bible and koran and other books is a lot of bull as compared to that in the same books which is blatantly prejudiced, violent, overly sexual, and so on. Yet it does not matter what is written therein, what matters is what the so called faithful people interpret and then act out. This is where FAITH is wrong, bad, evil etc... It has repeatedly shown itself to be a source of evil countless times throughout the centuries.

Sorry, there are three points I forgot to make:

1) Many Xn and muslims,for example, are very concerned with the issue of immortality. But what should be recognized is that it is possible for something like immortality to exist without god existing. In other words the existence of god is not a necessary condition for immortality(in whatever form) to be the state of affairs. Similarly, god may exist but there may be no immortality.


2) Xns, Jews and muslims often use the phrase "god exists" or "there is a god" etc. What they fail to recognize is that god may indeed exist but have no relation to Xn or muslim doctrines. The possilble existence of god does not entail that Xn or muslim beliefs are true. It is possible for god to exist and for this god to have beliefs that are antithetical to standard Xn , muslim or Jewish doctrine. God may exist and in fact despise Xns, Jews and muslims.

3) Even if god does exist there is no reason to believe that he is concerned with us at all. Likewise, even if god exists there is no compelling reason for us to be concerned with him. It would be beneath our dignity to pray and grovel to some entity simply because it happens to be more powerful than we are.
James Tyler

You know, I have the only real answer.

The concept of a God just doesn't make any sense, let alone a god that is supposed to be all good. Logically, god as an all powerful, sentient being, cannot exist. Think about it. IF God is all good, then he isn't infinite, and as such, isn't a god. Why, you ask? IF God is all good, he lacks the ability to be evil, which is limiting, a.k.a., not infinite. The only solution to this is that god must be infinitely good, and infinitely evil. What happens when positive and negative meet? They cancel out. So if God is infinite, he must be infinitely both sides of every coin, and thus canceled out, or nonexistant.

The big bang. What was around before? You can't get something from nothing. Now, quantum singularities can occur in space where two oppositely charged particles simply appear, speed apart, then speed back together and cease to exist again. But that isn't really something coming from nothing. I don't mean a vacuum nothing, as that is still a vacuum. I mean nothing. That we exist suggests some higher power.

So if there couldn't really be a god, and existence couldn't start without a god, the only solution is that we don't actually exist. Everything equals zero in the end. And it's pointless to worry about whether or not there is a god.

We know that religion exsists as thats evident from all of the fighting in the various places in the world

* we have Isreal & the fiasco there
*we have the muslim extremists in the middle east and various places
* we had the romans who just were
*we have the christians who IMHO are just crazy
* the Cathilocs that think for some reason its ok to molest kids and hide it from the public and refuse to give up the dirtry (BADWORDS) to the police

Look at the track record of religions it SUCKS no religion has ever made my life better only worse. I say this because Idont believe some guy can slap someone in the head on tv and then they will miraciously get up and dance like someone on bandstand , Every public religious figure that has ever been is flawed or has been flawed in some of the worst ways .I choose to live by whats right & wrong by the law not what a person dictates out of a book that i have no idea who wrote... i understand history but i dont trust a large part of the religious history itself . We know from the start of time as we know it entire societies have been obliterated in the name of religion ... the Romans ... the myians(sp) im sure there are many more but in social studies i choose to spend my time drawing artwork lol as the past didnt and doesnt effect my future IMHO.For one to say what is in the bible is the way i should live my life to me is a dictatorship, i say this because from the lil i know of the bible and trust me it aint much only what i hear from the parents and it kinda sickens me to think that because its written is is to be taken and put in effect in my life .I respect the fact my parents have found religion as i have said earlier "to each there own" but the religion says for gays & lesbians to do what they do they are to be damned is just friggin crazy when they bible says i think to love all mean equally ? how can you damn one section of society because of their sexual choice i would rather be in a room with a gay woman/man then a child molesting catholic ... a finatical muslim extremist .I know the gay person/s arent going to try to project and spew thier belifs on me . what they do is their buisness if they are not hurting people or trying to tell people that what they believe is wrong i have never met a gay person tell me i was going to be damned to hell because i was straight but yet on the other hand the religious community look at them as the lowest lifes on the planet .. its just sicking to me how people can be so judgmental to another for what they choose as the lifestyle they live .So in short when i die wether i goto what they call heavan or hell is of no substanial meaning to me as i live my life here cause i belive when i die .. thats it and these are again my thoughts nothing more nothing less

"Religion does take away from your existence if you believe in intellectual integrity. To base a belief on the 'comfort' you derive from it is to be self decieved."

I have very definite beliefs on these issues, as I am sure everyone knows. However, I also have beliefs about how I discuss issues of the Bible. If one wants to talk about the Bible, my phone rings 25 hours a day. If one wants to denate the Bible, I am willing, given we follow the rules of actual debate. If one wants to argue the Bible, I'm really not interested, thanks anyway.

That being said, let me just point out one thing about the quote above: All of us hold what we do about life because of the "comfort" we derive from those beliefs. To say otherwise is really to be hypocritical.

I believe the Bible to be the inspired word of God. There are logical argumentations that demand the existence of God, and the very complexity of the world in which we live cannot be explained away by any evidence I have ever seen anywhere else. Given those, and other pieces of evidence, I have no doubt as to the existence of my God, and I do draw comfort from that belief.

However, the individual who professes atheism and leans upon the answers he gets from science, is also deriving comfort from his beliefs. I have never met anyone who has actually, personally performed the experiments that he uses for ALL of his reasons for believing as he does from a scientific perspective. Everyone I have ever met relies on the testimony of others, which is fine. But to say that such a person has not invested himself in the religion of science (that is, that he has bought into the concept that only that which is empiracle is important and that the process of science is pure in and of itself), when he obviously has, is simple self-deception.

I have my beliefs, based upon the evidences I have seen, after having evaluated those evidences within my own mind. I draw comfort from the fact that I have adopted this position. Others have their beliefs, based upon the evidences they have seen, after having evaluated those evidences within their own minds, and they draw comfort from the fact that they have adopted their positions as well. Both they and I "feel good" about holding what we individually hold. If we did not, we would seek another set of answers. That is not to imply that we necessarily LIKE the answers that we have gotten from our individual belief systems, but merely that we feel good about having that belief system. In other words, the atheist may not LIKE the idea of him blinking our of existence when this life is over (as many hold), but he feels intellectually superior for having adopted that conclusion from his belief system. He derives comfort from his perceived intellectual superiority just as surely as any religious person derives comfort from a purportedly superior spiritual position.

Each of us is free to believe what we will. But for the scientist to say that his is not a system of faith, because his evidences are physical instead of metaphysical, appears to me to be quite self-deceptive. I admit that I have a faith by which I pattern my life and the choices I make therein. Why is that so hard for those who do the same thing, simply by a different standard?

I really think part of the problem is that we are not using the term "faith" in the same way most of the time. People generally think that "faith" is a blind belief based on nothing at all, but that is completely contrary to my belief system. I'll not bore everyone here with why I have faith as I do, but rest assured it is not a blind belief just because someone told me so.

Let me just leave you with this question: Are the rules of logic real and binding? Be careful how you answer, now! Logic is a pursuit that is entirely contained within the realm of metaphysics, that only has applications in the physical world. If we cannot know that which is beyond sensorial perception, as many seem to be claiming here, then how can logic be discovered? If we cannot discover logic, how can any assertion ever be maintained about science or anything else?

Darrin,
You write very elequently, I am not as adept at expressing myself as you are. That was certainly the most thought provoking reply in this thread in my opinion.

Glenn,
I took your suggestion and re-read your post. I stand behind my statement.
Killing in God's name is not true faith. Claiming to be faithful while murdering and enslaving your fellow man is blasphemy in my opinion. You won't find the truly faithful among those who commit atrocities such as these. Again, God wants us to follow His laws AND Man's laws.
I don't claim to know what motivates people to kill in His name but it certainly isn't the Bible or the Koran. If those people actually lived by the words they find in those texts they would not, instead they use the texts as a means to force their views and advance their adjenda no matter how contradictory to the very teachings they claim to hold so dear.
I am not close minded and I am willing to give anyone the oppourtunity to express any belief they want, I will listen. That is not to say that I will buy what they are selling but I'm not going to dimiss them out of hand. Opposing viewpoints are one of the cornerstones this country was founded upon, as is the right to those views. I don't have to agree with what you believe, and you don't have to agree with me. In the end I believe that the way in which you lived is what is truly important. Not believing in God is no excuse for shoddy treatment of those that do. Please Glenn don't take offense as I am speaking of everyone, I am not singling you out. I am going to be held responsible for my behavior by my God, be it good or bad and depending on your beliefs you will be as well. Maybe you (generic) believe in Karma, call it whatever you want, I am convinced that there will be a day of reckoning. If that prospect doesn't make you stop and think then I guess more power to you, as for me I'll try to stay on the right path, pass or fail.
UFFERN,
I can't really tell if you are being sarcastic with your first statement in which you claim to have the only answer, if you are serious I would have to say that statement is a bit arrogant don't you think? I mean how is it that man has been searching for the meaning to his existence for as long as there has been the ability for abstract thought but it took you to set people on the right path. You are entitled to your opinion just as everyone else is but claiming you have the one and only answer is a stretch to say the least. You raise some very valid points but your total refusal to try to see it from someone else's viewpoint is close minded. I don't agree with Glenn but I am not saying my answer is the only one and anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong. I might be wrong, but I'm betting my eternal soul that I'm not. What do I have to lose?

Respectfully,
Chris

Darin,

You say, in essence among other things, that people who are atheists believe or have faith in empirical knowledge so they have a sort of religion. You also say:

I have never met anyone who has actually, personally performed the experiments that he uses for ALL of his reasons for believing as he does from a scientific perspective.

Now while you may not have met anyone who has performed an experiment on every scientific belief he has, you certainly have met many people who have tested the so called "laws" of science and who do so in everyday life. I for one, even though not an atheist, do test those laws daily. I walk, and therefor test the laws of gravity, and as a child I shook apples out of trees to test Newton's theories. I test many things of a like nature, especially regarding nature. Many, if not all of the things I have tested have held true to the claims made by scientists. Of course I also have a belief in many in things they teach, but my beliefs in science are usually with some sort of reservations and I doubt. This is where my beliefs differ from true religious faith, as to have faith in God means you have overcome your doubts, you must believe in God, trust God and be loyal to God; and you believe for the sake of believing without further proof or without proof at all. This is the doctrine of every major religion I have ever studied, and it is certainly dogma for the extremists.

I do not have faith in God or that there is even a God. I seriously doubt such to be the case. I believe there may have been superior beings, but either they are dead or have forsaken us. I have faith in neither of those beliefs, even though they are my own - because I am doubtful of even my own correctness. I question myself and others, and will continue to question until a definitive answer is given. The bible, or the koran, or whatever, do not contain anything of that nature for me. What I do believe they contain were lessons for superstitious people, who had little of science, and little understanding of what made things happen. While they were a means of explaining things, and an easy one at that - to say there is an almighty - they were also an easy way to control the masses. This is where Karl marx got it wrong, religion is not the opiate of the masses, religion is the impetus of the masses to do a religious leader's will - and too many times those in charge have chosen to kill, and maim in the name of god.


So I keep on wondering which side if either will prove right, and I keep asking questions, doubting and performing experiments just like any little kid who is in wonder of his world.

best regards,
Glenn B