here it's HOT!!!

P.S.
Nazza made a very important point,....sooner or later the oil will be gone. Then what?
And all the pollution which was made from burning it will be in the air, in the sea, and on the land. Then what? It's not hard to figure out the answer to that question. Just look around you, the evidence is already here! We are killing this planet, and all of the life that our creator put here. Including,...the indigo.
T.

It is indeed HOT here, as in hot debate. I love this sh*t, not exactly what i would expect on a Dry forum but hey, these things should be discussed whenever possible, although there is a point where peole get flustered, and as I understand the great uSA if you lose or can't resolve an argument you just go and shoot someone. Flying lead at 12 o'clock!! (Kidding)
Religion is a tough topic to debate, based on belief rather than fact, but thats ok everyone is entitled, people used to think that the world was flat, the wierd thing is that they were the greatest thinkers of their time who propogated the idea, or else why would people have listened to them? Science is always flawed but the primary assumption in science is the Null Hypothesis, that you are setting out to find the evidence to prove or disprove the aim of the study, NOT to prove yourself right! Therefore science has to see every side of the question, and if in 100 years someone proves you wrong, you just shrug your shoulders and say "well it was valid at the time with the data and techniques available at the time" they weren't wrong until someone proved it otherwise. Thats where I come unstuck with religion, its too linear and shut off to debate, proof, and there is no Null Hypothesis just belief.
Belief is amazing and i respect that, i really do, I would say I am a total non believer but when my Mum was dying of cancer at the age of 58, I still asked the priest to give the last rights, call it hedging my bets, call it hoping she was going to a better place, so even as someone with a pure science background and a fear of the belief crew, I still wanted to be sure that all the bases were covered.
Now I sense that by this point some people will be saying "So? What your point?" Well, the point is that at the moment science is saying that human impact is destroying the environment, and has been saying this for decades, only now people are starting to panic, it looks like we are too late.
Have your belief, cool, help the environment please, thanks, and remember that if there is a God and we are his children, and he loves us all, then we all get to go to heaven, 'cos he loves the non-believers too, they are just different and thats how he created us. If there is no God, then alot of people have wasted their Sundays, when they could have spent the time with their kids sharing in their discovery and discovering a solution to global warming just as an example.
Love is a word used too lightly, and hate used too often, we should just respect everything, I recon the Buddhists have got it right, I just dont like the orange robes, and the crap food.
Take it easy all, i know I'm new to the forum but I couldn't resist a good debate.
Al
p.s. the USA imports more oil from Canada than anywhere esle, and has the longest unprotected border in the world. I see a way out of the mid-east crisis.
p.p.s. since we have stepped away from discussing drys, my Eyelash Viper had 7 banana babies and I am a very happy daddy

But, this topic is getting old.

Politics, and global warming is a good example, has no place in science.

All scientists neither agree that global warming is occurring, nor that it is man caused (if it is occurring) .

I am a geologist. I am a professional scientist. I am familiar with the evidence, both for and against the global warming hypothesis. I am not convinced that the current evidence supports either theory; that global warming is occurring, or is man-caused.

As a geologist I have a different view of time, our world, and the planet than most people. To illustrate, let me suggest the following point of view:

Extinction is not a bad thing. 99.999+ percent of all species that have ever existed on Earth are now extinct. For any species to survive and occupy ecological niches, other species must become extinct.

Modern humans, that is Homo sapiens, have existed for approximately 150,000 years. Civilization for perhaps the last 15,000 years or so. The Homo genus appeared approximately 3 million years (my) ago. Homo evolved from Primate ancestors, which have existed for approximately 25 or 30 my. Primates evolved from Mammals that first appeared circa 180 my ago.

About the same time Mammals first appear in the fossil record, another group also appeared - the Archosaurs. Archosaurs include among their members the extant Birds and Crocodillians. These are highly successful large animals, able to defend their ecological niches against all comers since they appeared.

The third and most important group of Archosaurs are the Dinosaurs. Dinosaurs first appear about 180 my ago in the Permin, concurrent with the first Mammals. The Dinosaurs were direct competitors of the early Mammals. The two groups sought to occupy the same ecological niches. After 10 my or so, Dinosaurs won. They dominated planetary ecological niches for the next 100 my, successfully suppressing their Mammal competitors for that entire time. Along with Mammals, they survived the Great Permian Extinction, a candidate for the the single most devastating extinction event in Geologic History.

Here's the clincher - in order for Mammals to diversify, evolve into Primates, the Homo genus, and Modern Man, one thing had to happen first: the Dinosaurs had to become extinct. Dinosaurs were incredibly successful. For a staggeringly long period of time, they defended their ecological niches against their Mammalian challengers. They were the dominant large land animals on Earth for a longer period of time than they have been extinct.

For Modern Man, Homo sapiens, to exist, for there to be civilization, computers, for Al Gore to have invented the internet, for us to be having this conversation, THE DINOSAURS HAD TO BE WIPED OUT. Completely and utterly killed off. No more, not a single breeding pair, all of them, dead, dead, dead. Not only "merely dead, but truly and sincerely" completely, and permanently - EXTINCT.

That is my story of time and extinction. Humans are but a blip on the geological time scale - We have about 99.99 mys to go before we can begin to compare ourselves to the most successful large land animals that have ever existed on Earth.

So what does this have to do with Indigo Snakes? Drymarchon is a widespread and successful genus. There is no evidence that the genus is either threatened with extinction by human activity, or that it could even be rendered extinct on purpose. One specific (sub?)species, the Eastern Indigo, has suffered a documented decline in range and numbers as a direct result of competition with man for habitat.

As a species, man has the ability to out-compete other species, not by occupying their niches, but by modifying the environment so that those niches are destroyed or rendered uninhabitable. This is what is causing the decline in the Eastern Indigo.

If the Eastern Indigo is to survive as a species in the wild, their habitat - the ecological niche in which they out-compete all challengers, must be preserved. This has nothing whatsoever to do with unconfirmed hypothesis that "western man is destroying the planet" - it has to do with real, here and now, decisions made at state and local levels of politics.

We must stop destruction of habitat, especially the barbaric practise of bulldozing Gopher tortoises and their Eastern Indigo cohabitants in their burrows. To do this, development must be limited, so people must be discouraged from moving to Florida. We must redesign roads and highways to be less lethal to wildlife. An indigo hit by a 50 mpg Priapise is just as dead as one hit by a gas-guzzling SUV.

Doing these two simple things will help the Eastern Indigo more than any Kyoto-style treaty.

I appeal to all here on this forum - set aside the politics. Our personal beliefs are not the issue here. Whether Global Warming is or is not happening, whether it is or is not man-caused, is irrelevant and immaterial.

If the dire consequences predicted by the Chicken-Little's come to pass, Mankind will find a way to live through it or with it. Just as we have for the past 150,000 years overcome or survived global ice ages, continent-wide droughts, planet-impacting volcanic eruptions, meteorite strikes, 9.0+ earthquakes, famine, tsunami, disease, war, and every other disaster, man-made or natural.

We will survive, and we will do it as we always have in the past - by using, improving, adapting and embracing technology, science, and enterprise.

If not, then we too will become extinct, a pitiful last-place finisher compared to the all-time, Gold Medal winners in the Super Bowl of Evolution - the Dinosaurs.

Thanks for reading - Hope you enjoyed the lecture. Class dismissed.

John D

Oustanding post John.

We must stop destruction of habitat, especially the barbaric practise of bulldozing Gopher tortoises and their Eastern Indigo cohabitants in their burrows. To do this, development must be limited, so people must be discouraged from moving to Florida. We must redesign roads and highways to be less lethal to wildlife. An indigo hit by a 50 mpg Priapise is just as dead as one hit by a gas-guzzling SUV.

Doing these two simple things will help the Eastern Indigo more than any Kyoto-style treaty.

Well John, simply you are right. I lost my mind for the "hot days" here in italy, and didn't focus on the Indigo problem, so I wrote about Kyoto, war and blablablabla, sorry.
But now I woul do do you a question. Don't you think that stopping the destruction of the habitat is excactly what we was writing about? Don't you think that the respect of nature and animals habitats is also respect Kyoto and reducing the interference of humans with animals habitat, that is important to assume a different way to relation ourselves with nature?
USA are the biggest pollutors in the world, the US contains 4% of the world's population but produces 24% of all carbon dioxide emissions. Your president says that he will not adopt Kyoto protocols because they harm American economy (based on burning of oil)
ATTENTION: almost all country except USA signed kyoto, also China decided to reduce emissions, that country has cut emissions by 17% since the mid 1990s.
How do you think that your US politics will take the idea of protecting the habitat of a BLEAHHHHHHHHH snake, if they demostrate continuosly that they don't care for environment? All I would says is that we should change our way of thinking, should seem that a 8000cc 4x4 is not THE problem, but is part of a wrong way to act.

Hmmm,...

"If the dire consequences predicted by the Chicken-Little's come to pass, Mankind will find a way to live through it or with it. Just as we have for the past 150,000 years overcome or survived global ice ages, continent-wide droughts, planet-impacting volcanic eruptions, meteorite strikes, 9.0+ earthquakes, famine, tsunami, disease, war, and every other disaster, man-made or natural."

Sure we'll find a way to survive, but,... my whole argument is based on the fact that I really don't want to go through that!!! Do you? And I think we have the power to prevent that scenario from comming to pass. And if I am Chicken Little, and we make the nessecary changes to prevent such catastrophy, what would be wrong with that? What would be wrong with us doing without oil, and coal? What would that hurt? But if I am right, and we do nothing to stop it, you can kiss the indigo, and civilization good bye. Personally, I'd rather try and stop all that from happening.

And for me this is not about politics. I'm done voting. There's nobody worth voting for anyway. They're all a bunch of lieing, cheating, backstabbers who make me sick every time I turn on the T.V. or the radio!!!

And as far as this thread goes, I'm done too. It's turned into a pissing contest, and a giant waste of time. I have cages to clean, babies to feed, art to finish, and a bazillion other things to do. I guess all we can do now is wait and see. Meanwhile, my fellow vets are getting blown away for nothing. This is my last visit to this thread.
T.

Tony - The "Chicken-Little" characterization was uncalled for, and I did not intend it personally. I was trying not to be condescending or patronizing, and it seems I failed. For that you have my sincere apology. I respect your sport and passion. Words cannot express my personal gratitude to you for your service to our country.

Nazza - I cannot stress too much that you are correct about changing peoples views. An appreciation for Mankind's place in the greater scheme of things would do everyone good. I am in awe of your achievements, and integrity. I wish I could come to Italy to visit.

My views are mine alone - I ask no one to believe them based solely on my word. What I would ask is that one keep an open mind, examine the evidence critically, and ask hard questions. When science becomes a political football, as has happened with the Global Warming Hypothesis, it is all too easy to buy into the media hype, political posturing, and hysterical doom-pandering.

Critical inquiry, not blind faith, is the soul of science. Rationality and logic are learned behaviors, difficult but not impossible. They can not replace passion and faith, nor are they meant to.

Take a step back from the media frenzy. Do some research - Not from TV, Internet Blogs, Newspapers, and Magazines. These sources of so-called news are anything but. They filter and distill the facts to fit the conclusions they want you to reach. They distort and misuse statistics. They misquote, defame and libel. They have their own agenda, and the truth isn't necessarily high on their list. Look to the sources - scientific data, research. and journals. Draw your own conclusions, present your own arguments, and think for youself.

As for Prophets of Doom, they have always been part of humanity, and they always will. Sometimes they are right, mostly they are wrong. Mostly they all agree on one basic thing - they are Right, and anyone who dares to disagree is Wrong.

I close with a quote:

"It is an advantage to all narrow wisdom and narrow morals that their maxims have a plausible air; and, on a cursory view, appear equal to first principles. They are light and portable. They are as current as copper coin; and about as valuable. They serve equally the first capacities and the lowest; and they are, at least, as useful to the worst men as to the best. Of this stamp is the cant of not man, but measures; a sort of charm by which many people get loose from every honourable engagement."
Edmund Burke, Thoughts on the cause of the present discontents, 1770. In The Works of the Right Honourable Edmund Burke, edited by Henry Froude, Oxford University Press, 1909, Volume 2, page 83, lines 7 to 16.

Thanks for reading. Hope you enjoyed the dissertation.

John D.

"I respect your sport and passion."

Opps! Should say "I respect your spirit and passion."

Damn spell checker.

JPD

I'm not a scientist, I've studied but my degree is not scientific, so for me is impossible to collect data personally about global warming and searching for the causes.
I'm forced to trust in some (minor?) magazines as "the Lancet" (there are a lot of articles on the lancet about global warming), if they write:
"There is near unanimous scientific consensus that greenhouse gas emissions generated by human activity will change Earth's climate. The recent (globally averaged) warming by 0·5°C is partly attributable to such anthropogenic emissions." (The Lancet - Vol. 367, Issue 9513, 11 March 2006, Pages 859-869) I trust in them.
You should be disappointed visiting me (well, you'll not be disappointed for my indigo ), because I'm not an example of integrity; simply I'm educated to not drop a paper on the ground, soI would like not seeing throwing venom in my air and in my water.
You speaks of Prophet of Doom, it's strange, because the biggest Prophete of Doom now is sitting in your White House, and who disagree with him is wrong; He is the one that doen'st care about Kyoto, because all other countries are stupid (they give to much importance to ambientalists? I don't think... for example in China usually they don't care, and for Japan, Norway and Iceland would be easier and economically favorable stopping killing whales instead of reducing emissions)

You know it's funny Tony. I've been using that as my signature line for years and you've never said anything about it. Seems you didn't have a problem with my faith until I disagreed with you on global warming. As long as we were in agreement on things all was well.
You say you don't have any insecurities or you don't really care about politics, but your actions say otherwise. You're acting like a typical liberal who can't stand to have anyone disagree with them. And by the way you did endorse a political party not long ago. I believe it was the green party.

If you don't like my sig line or the fact that i'm a Christian then that's just too bad because i'm not changing for you or anyone else.
You've told me that you're a Buddhist. I disagree with your beliefs, but I have not tried to change you nor have I public ally ridiculed what you believe.
There is no excuse for your actions.

And to Nazza (and anyone else who want to bad mouth America) you sit there and complain about America and the amount of resources we use and you're right, we do use far more that most countries, but guess what...
We do far more for the world than Italy or any other country on the face of the Earth. If it weren't for America and her strength the rest of the world would have far more problems.

As for Bush being a prophet of doom, I think you have it all wrong. You guys who are running around like Chicken Littles (no apology over that analogy here, it fits) are the prophets of doom and gloom. Your actions are predicable, just like the media, all you do is spread doom and gloom you can never see the positive in anything. What a shame!

Eric