is this a desparate business in need of funds?

Originally Posted by Casey Hulse

I think you missed my point Griz....

Evidently, I have missed all of your points as I have yet to see any. I don't mean that in an insulting way either Casey. The fact of the matter is..... you have not substantiated your argument. You are simply crying foul because you don't think it is fair to you. Why isn't it fair? Why is selling for less unethical?

Put some meat onto your posts and you might just be able to convince me of your points. But, just stating, it's the way I feel is not justification for your stance.

Griz

We vend at several shows every month, we sell all sorts of stuff, but we produce beardies, boas, retics and some bps which we could give away if we wanted to in order to force other breeders (our competition) out of the market, or at least try to. Other vendors could do the same to us.We do not do that, and neither do others. Maybe this hobby should not be about trying to stomp your competition into the dirt, rather we do it because we enjoy it. The other vendors are our friends, some of them we sold thier founding stock. I have no desire to try to "stomp" them out.
But my main point is, if you sell/represent your animals to prospective customers as a "good buy" or a "great DEAL!", then you market your animals at a far lower price a short time later, in my book that is a bad thing, if we all tried to stomp out the competition, then I would be one of the first to leave. I guess some of us do not have the killer instinct like you..Is that a flaw in your book?(nevermind, I know the answer).

Originally Posted by Casey Hulse

We vend at several shows every month, we sell all sorts of stuff, but we produce beardies, boas, retics and some bps which we could give away if we wanted to in order to force other breeders (our competition) out of the market, or at least try to. Other vendors could do the same to us.We do not do that, and neither do others. Maybe this hobby should not be about trying to stomp your competition into the dirt, rather we do it because we enjoy it. The other vendors are our friends, some of them we sold thier founding stock. I have no desire to try to "stomp" them out.

Casey, I highlighted the key word in your above comment. If this is a hobby to you then you have no business complaining. A hobby is done because you love what it is you are doing and are simply trying to support your current collection. Having a hobby is not about maximizing profits. Business, however, is.

Originally Posted by Casey Hulse

But my main point is, if you sell/represent your animals to prospective customers as a "good buy" or a "great DEAL!", then you market your animals at a far lower price a short time later, in my book that is a bad thing, if we all tried to stomp out the competition, then I would be one of the first to leave. I guess some of us do not have the killer instinct like you..Is that a flaw in your book?(nevermind, I know the answer).

No Casey, I think it is one reason why people like you. Having a killer instinct is neither a good nor a bad thing. However, it is the key to running a successful business. You have to be competitive in order to stay close to the top. Otherwise, like you said, you will be one of the first one's out.

Selling your animals at a good price only to reduce that price a few months later is not bad business nor is it a "bad thing." It's called life. If someone bought an animal at $3000 and assumed it would remain at that price for months to come then they are foolish. Plain and simple, foolish. It has never worked that way. If anything, the average consumer needs to be furious with individuals who try to keep the price so outrageous that 90% of the population can't afford to purchase one. That's the "bad thing" and that's the "unethical" issue that presents itself.

Instead of looking at this through the eyes of the 10% (ie those with money) why not look at it this through the eyes of the 90% (those without). If that does not open your eyes then there is a problem.

Griz

Instead of looking at this through the eyes of the 10% (ie those with money) why not look at it this through the eyes of the 90% (those without). If that does not open your eyes then there is a problem.

My eyes are open, trust me. I just do not agree with some of your analogies, not a problem to me....

Originally Posted by Casey Hulse

My eyes are open, trust me. I just do not agree with some of your analogies, not a problem to me....

But it IS a problem for countless others who cannot afford these animals because certain people make sure of that. That's a shame Casey, a real shame......

Griz

My $0.02 after skimming this- all this does is give all those people looking for the best deal more exposure to it. Now more and more people know that MKR will give the best bottom line price=more business and more profit. All you've done is give them free advertising.

Not beeing a BP breeder but enjoying some morphs I now have their page bookmarked for the future.

Originally Posted by chakup

My $0.02 after skimming this- all this does is give all those people looking for the best deal more exposure to it. Now more and more people know that MKR will give the best bottom line price=more business and more profit. All you've done is give them free advertising.

Not beeing a BP breeder but enjoying some morphs I now have their page bookmarked for the future.

Kind of ironic, isn't it?

Originally Posted by markface

no offense stephanie , but it seems in these 2 statements you contradict yourself . for the guys that run mkr its a business not a hobby.

I was about to head off to bed last night when I wrote this. I sat for 10 minutes searching for the word I was looking for and gave up and threw in hobbyists. Insert word "enthusiasts" where "hobbyists" is.

I do think their actions with this whole Mojave thing is a matter of ethics. Having a lack of respect for your fellow enthusiasts shows an extreme lack of integrity.

Or, if it pleases you, put customers in that sentence. As I'm sure they ticked off many customers that purchased the month before at a much higher price.

Originally Posted by Griz

How did they blow it? Do you not see how this statement can come across EXTREMELY unethical? You are upset that the market on a gecko crashed vs allowing you enough time to capitalize on the obviously inflated market. Got news for you Stephanie, if the Mack Snows dropped by 90% in one year than this tells you that they were OVERPRICED to begin with!!!! But hey, what does gouging the end consumer have to do with ethics, right?

Nope, I wasn't dumb enough to drop over a grand on that morph before watching how it was handled in the market. So it didn't affect ME...Though I know many others it DID affect and know they're TICKED. I paid $200 for my first Mack Snow this year. I could have gotten him for $75 from the individual that started the crash...But I prefer to support quality breeders with the intent to better the species.

Originally Posted by Griz

That should tell you something about your marketing plan. He ticked you off because he was able to do the same thing as you but for substantially less. Sounds like you need to make better longterm buying strategies.

What ticked me off was that he was selling them for the price of NORMALS. I don't care if he wanted to undercut me or anyone else. But selling them for the same price as a normal? Come on!

Originally Posted by Griz

"What I have available for you today is the revolutionary, no expense spared, SUPER DUPER LAVENDER LOLLIPOP!"

OOOOOOOOOOO...I want one!

The difference in your analogy is that these haven't JUST come out. They have been out in the market for many years. AND, what Casey said.
_______________________

I don't think everyone is ever going to agree on this matter. Everyone just has their own opinions & feelings.

Originally Posted by TripleMoonsExotic

OOOOOOOOOOO...I want one!

The difference in your analogy is that these haven't JUST come out. They have been out in the market for many years. AND, what Casey said.
_______________________

I don't think everyone is ever going to agree on this matter. Everyone just has their own opinions & feelings.

For what it's worth Stephanie, I am not without sympathy for those that got caught up in this situation. However, one persons poor planning does not make the seller a bad guy. Maybe that is my main point.....

Griz

Griz,

I for one agree with many of your responses, and applause your ability to convey a simple reality.



There seems to be three underlying categories here that are being confused and tossed around here with clear disregard for their definitions. In my opinion, persons in the reptile community fall into one of these categories;

Category #1: The Hobbyist - I define this person as someone who truly loves the animal/hobby for what it is, and has no regard for profit potential. In other words, I personally love Andean Milksnakes (note the smirk on some of you). Not for the "huge profits" these animals can yield since I doubt i'm "going to grad school" on a $45. snake, but because of what they are, an amazing animal.

Category #2: The Businessman - Someone with the clear intent to make profit. Whether or not some of these "businessmen" like the animals they work with is to be determined. In essence however, these persons have the clear goal to make money, and as much of it as they can depending on the initial investments they make.

Category #3: The Business-Hobbyist Hybrid - Someone who does indeed love the animals they are working with, and also likes the idea of making money off the animals they work with. This is probably the area where persons are confused.

Most of these posts in this forum originate from the persons who I think resemble category #3. However, there is a clear distinction in what a businessman is, and what is Business-Hobbyist is, no doubt about it. It's up to each individual to determine what "category" they fit into, and understand why they do what they do. To speak in a degrading nature about who does what with their animals shows the inability for that person to make that distinction, hence why this topic is now on page #30-something. I think some people need to take a step back and ask themselves what truly motivates them, and peruse those endeavors towards happiness, afterall this is why many of us have reptiles in the first place.

Many persons on here assume MKR fits into category #2 because of the massive Mojave sale not too long ago. The key word here is "assume" since only a presumption can be made based on their actions that the public has placed on them. If they are business related, so be it, they are entitled to be whatever they want.

I for one think the Ball Python industry is not "falling" but simply evolving. Herpetoculture has become more popular than ever with some, even make it their full time careers. You have to ask yourself, if the market was really "falling" why are there more breeders than ever making record sales on Kingsnake and other places? I for one belive the industry is getting stronger, with greater potential for the Hobbyist-Businessman to make a nice secondary income. Trends will come and go, but the snakes are still here. Here's a small timeline to demonstrate....

1980's - Colubrids were incredibly popular, boas and pythons weren't. Remember the Albino corn back in the '80's? Wow, youi couldn't touch those things!

1990's - Boas became more mainstream gaining in popularity, colubrids were still strong, and many pythons including the ball were ignored except for a few breeders who saw potential.

2000+ - Boas and Ball Pythons are strong, with many colubrids and less popular animals like Rosy Boas and others taking a break from the spotlight.

Is the snake industry dying? No! It's evolving, nothing more.

The bottom line is that YOU need to ask yourself why you are in this industry in the first place and assume the risks accordingly. By doing so, you would have already known what you were "getting into" before purchasing a high-dollar animal. You know what they say...... "if you can't take the heat, get out of the incubator."