Selective spider breeding

Originally Posted by RJK890

How has this forum has helped Zach learn a few things, that would lead him to pay the $25. MINIMUM PER YEAR to be a CONTRIBUTOR?!

I do not think the management wants us to (as long as we are decent) change up the truth or our opinions in order to attract cash. We would be post whores then.

I said what I thought; others may differ. As long as everyone is respectful of one another, once everyone has their say, onlookers might have a good basis for their opinions by reading what has been said and deciding what they think.

Thanks, Rob...I may have to start using that as my signature! (Peace)

I personally think there should be a complete halt to the production of spiders.

Wobbling is a flaw. While the quality of life question for existing animals that exhibit the trait is one of degrees, where a minor issue may not be seen as negatively impacting the individual animals based on the degree of expression... it's a flaw. It's not a cute little quirk or something that should be ignored or dismissed as inconsequential. As a trait, it's bad.

The potential to produce animals who exhibit the trait to such a degree that the quality of life is impacted from animals where the trait sees a very minor expression, or even appears totally absent, should be looked at as further evidence that the reproduction of the line carries with it the inherent possibility- and even probability- of producing specimins who are expressing the trait to such a degree as to warrant culling.

I feel that a high probability of producing an animal with a quality of life issue that warrants culling is indicative of a breeding that never should have occurred to begin with.

I will acknowledge that the exact reason behind the trait and the method of genetic transmission are currently largely unknown. If I cared more positively about morphs, I'd support the idea of competent, educated individuals working with a closed collection attempting to map the transmission and to examine the variables and possible physiological reasons behind the wobbling in an effort to understand and eradicate it. However, given that nobody actually needs this particular genotypical variation, I personally don't see it as remotely worth the effort or time that would need to be expended in order to identify actual answers.

I support the idea of universal culling. Or at the very least a total and uniform cessation of all breeding efforts associated with the morph. There are well intentioned people trying to line breed for minimal wobbling or using animals where the wobbling is currently absent... while I acknowledge that it's their time and work to invest where they want, I see it as being a waste.

Furthermore, their continued interest and their optimistic hope that the morph is salvageable only promotes the idea that there might be some future point devoid of wobbling. It keeps public interest up, which in turn allows for the continued production of wobblers by unscrupulous or uncaring individuals. It's only once a universal acknowledgment of the negative aspects of the morph occurs that the market for the morph will disappear and production will cease.

Originally Posted by hhmoore

Of course they do. Kevin (NERD) has stated that the founding male wobbled, and even that ALL spiders wobble. Of course, from what I have heard, he also inbred the heck out of the first couple generations in an attempt to find/prove a super. I was on somewhat of a sabbatical from the reptile world when that was happening, but from what I have read since, the wobble was the "dirty secret" of the spider morph for several years. It wasn't talked about openly, and that talk didn't happen until they became more accessible to hobbyists who started asking WTF??. Imagine getting into spiders earlier in the game, and dropping $5000+ on one...only to see it shaking all over the place when you unpacked it. You contact the breeder, and get told its normal - possibly even that all of them do it. No wonder the prevailing attitude was to just breed them and not worry about it - the option was to not breed it and kiss that investment goodbye.

This bothers me. This bothers me a lot.

Did no one stand up to him and say, WTF are you doing breeding and selling something with a defect? Has he never been taken to task for the irresponsibility? Those animals should have never been sold, especially for the sum he was asking. A neurological defect isn't "normal." I don't care who says or how many times...It's not...

I'll be honest and say I never looked that deeply into Spider history...But I did make a point to locate one that didn't wobble because I was aware of the problem. I didn't know that the founding snake was a wobbler and NERD knowingly bred the defect.

Was this a case of, "well it's NERD...Can't bring them to task...My as well make back my investment back and then some..."

I can't answer those questions, Steph....the BP morph craze happened while I was taking a few years off from things (keeping just a few favorite pets). As mentioned though, some of that post you quoted was from things I had read over the years since I became interested in bumblebees...so I can't guarantee that they are 100% accurate. (But some of the sources were people I would be inclined to believe.) While having a past acquaintance with Kevin, I hadn't spoken with him in at least 8 yrs when I found myself interested. I sure wasn't going to call him up and try to get him to remember me.

Here is my take:

Spiders as a single morph are very attractive animals. As combo morphs, they produce amazing looking crosses. In my opinion, some of the nicest crosses out there involve the Spider.

I was late getting into the Spider morph, and finally aquired one female in a trade in 06. I requested one that did not wobble, and that is what I got. The original female I got in 06 did not wobble as a baby, but as she grew, she started to "bob" her head up and down when feeding. She is a calm animal still, only bobbing a bit when she is hunting her rat down.

In 2008, when she was 1800 grams, I bred her to my Sulfur Mojave male. I got a Spider, Sulfur Spider, and what I believe is a Sulfur Mojave Spider. I kept the two crosses. As babies, they showed ZERO signs of wobbling. As yearlings, they do the head bob thing the mom does. They do not tie themselves in knots, and when you hold them, they are normal as can be. When they think they are getting food, the do the head bob.

I have heard some people say the Spiders are just like the Caramels and Super Womas, and I do not see it that way. I would never buy, nor sell a Kinked Caramel, but I have no problems breeding the Spiders. I honestly think all Spiders exhibit the wobble or bob to a certain extent. I think it is in their genetic code, and doubt it will ever be bred out. So, if you do not like Spiders, don't buy them. If you are a savvy buyer, and want a Spider, ask the breeder for a non wobbler, or see them in person before buying.

To me, my Sulfur Spider is a gorgeous animal, and calm, and tame when being held. So she gets really excited when she eats, so do I

Dave