How small is to small?

As someone who has been breeding ball pythons for quite a few years now, I would just like to say that this thread thus far as been an interesting read. There has been alot of great input from many individuals, and the posts seem to have been very lucid and well thought out.

So, I have to agree with Joe S., finally a debate, and a well put together discussion. If only all threads would be like this, I might contribute more often.

Originally Posted by Cp3_Pythons

I personaly prefer feeding live ( I ALWAYS STUN THE RATS BEFORE PLACING THEM IN THE TUB) the rats alive but more the less knocked out I have a few Bps that eat Meduim Rats and 2 that are on Large Rats ( Via there size ) As I dont see a Small Rat making a very good meal for a 2,000+ gram Ball Python...
IMO That would be like me going to Mickey D's and getting a Double Cheeseburger its not going to fill me up
It just seems natural to me that a Larger Ball Python would seek larger prey items and would go for the larger prey items vs a smaller prey item altough the smaller prey item may be easier to obtain/catch in the wild I have no doubt that they wouldn't eat a larger prey item if they caught it

Ok Im typing faster than im thinking let me re-phrase the last section in that becuase I belive it may be taken the wrong way since I re read it and I confused myself
I have no doubt that they WOULD eat a larger prey item if they caught it

Joe s
i will collect the data for this years breedings and forward you my end results when all said and done. giving the year off to most of my females with only a handfull breeding should be easy to do. pairings for this season include

bp x bp female is 1350 grams as of this she is still eating and has locked 6 times
spider x mojave this is second season she has gone 6 recorded locks and she is 1800 grams
black back x pastel third season for her 2800 grams 5 recorded locks

This is a sample of the average i am getting so far this season no ovulatios as of yet but most are building follicles and from what i can tell the BP has at least 6 follicles which is the average clutch size for that wieght i have observed. i will keep you posted as my season progresses. very good thread.

i too have some going on that's in the range you're speaking of.

lemon blast x bee. bee is 19 months old and 1400g

pewter x 2 cinnamons. one cinnamon is 16 months old and 1375g and one is 2 1/2 years old and 1450g

albino x albino. albino is 18 months old and 1400g

"IMO That would be like me going to Mickey D's and getting a Double Cheeseburger its not going to fill me up"

lol uhoh not a good argument from a health standpoint though if we start comparing the effects of say a large big mac combo (lg rat) and a double cheesburger (hmmm ASF).

...that said you did make me quite hungry.

Originally Posted by Earthworks

"IMO That would be like me going to Mickey D's and getting a Double Cheeseburger its not going to fill me up"

lol uhoh not a good argument from a health standpoint though if we start comparing the effects of say a large big mac combo (lg rat) and a double cheesburger (hmmm ASF).

...that said you did make me quite hungry.

Ok So it was a Bad comparison But hopefully I got the point across that I was trying to get across I was using it as a metophor but Yes I agree LoL I knew it would be sooner or later before someone commented on that LMAO

Mr. Payne, the argument from my side goes a little something like this... In the wilds of Africa, in the holes in which Ball Pythons generally reside, the largest prey item they would encounter would be approximately the equivalent size of a small common rat. Therefore, even a 5000+ gram female can subside and find all the nutrients needed from a weekly meal of a small rat. Or so I would argue. Now, if they were messing around in holes with capybaras, that'd be entirely different.

what would be he largest meal one would encounter in africa that a ball could realistically eat?

African giant rat - i would say to big but for the largest of balls
cape hare - to big
graeter cane rat-
rock dassie - similar to a guini pig
elephant shrew- yes
scrub hare - to large
spring hare- to large
tree squirrel- yes if they come to ground for food
striped grass mouse- yes
anderson gerbil- yes
agag gerbil- yes
gambian pouched rat yes
and a few other types of mice -yes

so as you can see the majority of there meals in my opinion would be mice, gerbils, and a few small rat species so it would be rare for them to have the size needed to eat some of the larger prey items such as the hares, mongoose which will kill a snake. IMO tehey would be slow growers in the wild and breed at smaller sizes than we allow them to you. It is most likely you would come across a 4 year old snake that is only in the 800 to 1000 gram range of course this is speculation on my part but common sense usually prevails. lets here what you all think.

Originally Posted by Joe_S

Krystal Tyler
Please let me start off by thanking you for understanding the fundamentals behind my originally stated question. Moving on, I most certainly agree with your first statement, the only harm in waiting is opportunity cost for those who care more about money than their animals. Personally, I got in to breeding ball pythons after over a decade of keeping them as pets because I find them fascinating and I care very dearly about each and every single animal. As to your statement of the theoretical several year old 1,000 gram-ish female, that's exactly my point. In that scenario, do you consider this animal a pet or is it safe for her to breed? What are the real risks involved?

Aww, thanks!

Both are excellent questions. First off, though, "pet" and "breeder" are fuzzy definitions to me, so I'm just going to go with "breeder" or "non-breeder." As for the several-year-old 1000g female, I guess it would mostly depend on the snake. For me, 1000g is probably way too borderline to try to breed her, but if she's in the 1100-1200g range, then I'd be more likely to try it. Again, though, it depends on the female: Is she a good eater? Does she have a good amount of body fat on her (erring on the side of too fat)? Is she as healthy as possible? If so, I'd be inclined to give it a whirl.

As for the real risks involved.... They're probably not all that different from breeding any other underweight female, with the exception that an older breeding female is not using energy to both produce eggs and grow, which will reduce the risks a bit.

I agree wholeheartedly with wanting actual, personal experiences with this! As I get more and more into breeding, I'm beginning to realize just how much "knowledge" about BP breeding is more hearsay than data-based--including some of the well-known BP care/breeding books out there!