How small is to small?

I would think that if the female is TOO young that she just wouldn't breed. If she's just barely mature enough, meaning that her reproductive organs are functional yet still growing, I would think that you could do damage to her. I believe that if you have any doubts, it's best to give them an extra year before you start breeding.

While I've never documented all the findings and compared, I have seen both sides from several other people breeding, as well as my own, that the girls bred as early as they could be (18 months, 1100-1200 grams) seemed to produce smaller clutches (4-5), while girls that were 3+ years and 1800+ grams seemed to average 6 to 9-egg clutches. All of the 5-egg clutches were from virgins, 18-24 months old. The lightest (non-accidental) was 1550 at the beginning of last breeding season.

I've only personally tried the younger example (and that was the accident that I described earlier in this thread) and she's not being bred this year so I can't tell you how it will effect her as a breeder in the long run. Last year, out of 17 clutches, I had (1) 11-egg clutch, (2) 9-egg clutches and the rest were mixed with 5, 6, 7's. The only 4-egg clutch I had was the accident.

Don't know if this helps, but it is my own personal experience.

Originally Posted by Matt2979

I've only personally tried the younger example one time(and

Left that out, but it's the reason that I can't give you any other personal examples of females bred to early.

I understand the whole what happens in the wild is the wild and its not always good. But like Matt was saying he had that accident girl pop out the least amount of eggs. Now we dont know if that was due to size or age, and have to wait til next year to get some data.

And your are right many of them could die being captured and shipped before they got to lay their eggs. But we really have no number what-so-ever on that. It could
1-1000. But even so, if we didn't capture these 800-900 gram girls and let them do what they do in the wild would have they survived? Would have they given birth with no problems at all? For all we know they could have, and the only reason they died is because we disturbed them.

But what im saying is in the wild they could have adapted to giving birth at a older age but smaller weight, and just having smaller clutches. The only way to really get an answer to this is to buy a bunch of lil girls, raise them differently and run trials. Its a project that has about ten years til we get a hint of some answers.

The only expirience I have is a girl who was atleast 6 yrs old (Cant know her age as she was found in a trailer park as an adult,) and was 1000-1100 grams, had an accidental breeding and she layed 7 good healthy eggs, (which was her fourth clutch on record) and recoverd no problem. I dunno if this info will help but its all I got. Oh, and just for the record her clutches were 7, 7, 5, 7*, and I think she had 7 last year, dunno as she isnt in my possession at this time.

*this was the year she accidently bred at 1000-1100, Idk her weights from earlier as that was the year I got her.

Idk why it did that but that one line is supposed to say "It could be anywhere from 1-1000"

to say its not a perfect situation in the wild is kind of crazy when you think about it. yes they do not have the pretection we give them or the once a week meals, but it as nature intended people survival of the fittest, we keep snakes in small shoe boxes stuff them with meals more than they need breed them every year and whats healthy about that? don't get me wrong but i think people try to play to much like the savior of the animal planet, mother nature was doing fine with out our help, we all keep them for either love of the animals, money, or some variation. if you think you are saving the species because you breed you are crazy and thats a lame excuse to justify why you are keeping them.

now my rant is over I do believe in the wild they breed at smaller sizes with no ill effects. i personally start my females out around 1200 grams if they look good and they always give them time off from breeding so not to burn them out.I still find it hard to believe that a female can attain a size of 1500 grams in an 18 month period with out feeding more than once a week or feeding oversized meals i would love to see a growth chart for a known average growth.

Originally Posted by gsrept

I still find it hard to believe that a female can attain a size of 1500 grams in an 18 month period with out feeding more than once a week or feeding oversized meals i would love to see a growth chart for a known average growth.

I honestly dont think there is an average growth as The growth IMHO would vary from one animal to another.. Maybe genetics plays a part in how fast or big a Ball Python gets?

i would think a very young female that had hit say 1400g w/good bodyweight if shes chose to breed would have significantly less risk than say a 5 year old female at 900g, the process itself uses so many resoruces and fat reserves of the snake in question and from what ive read eggbound issues are much more significant in underweight females, not just ball pythons but a number of species.

Dear Ryan Leadem,
Do you have any first hand experiences with either of the situations you've mentioned?

Originally Posted by gsrept

I still find it hard to believe that a female can attain a size of 1500 grams in an 18 month period with out feeding more than once a week or feeding oversized meals i would love to see a growth chart for a known average growth.

It's probably not possible.

Feeding over sized meals isn't the way to getting size fast, more smaller meals are.
I have 2 snakes 18 months old that are 1400 and 1600+ grams and they eat weanlings on average twice a week.
They are both breeding and if they take they take, if not they should go next year.

Correct me if Im wrong but I've always been told NEVER feed an item of prey thats bigger than the biggest/thickest part of the Ball Python/snake in question...